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To: ealgeone

You really are one great “internet theologian” that trumps everybody else (scholars, historians, Augustine, Aquinas, Benedict including noted Protestant scholars who converted to Catholicism) who all disagree with you.

There were thousands of written fragments that early followers were using but they all were part of the first Church. The compilation of the books in the Bible itself was in AD 382. This early Church was the Catholic Church dating from Christ and Peter to his successors beginning with Pope Linus.

All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius, also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter. These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174-189), when Irenaeus wrote his book “Adversus haereses”. This author claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his 2 Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Against Heresies III.3.3) reads:

“After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.” Linus reigned from about A.D. 64

So much for your ekklesia!


32 posted on 04/11/2016 3:31:51 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: Steelfish
There were thousands of written fragments that early followers were using but they all were part of the first Church. The compilation of the books in the Bible itself was in AD 382. This early Church was the Catholic Church dating from Christ and Peter to his successors beginning with Pope Linus.

14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:14-16

You are aware that Paul's letters were accorded the status of Scripture by 66 AD and we in circulation among the churches prior to that....right?

Galatians 49 AD

1, 2 Thessalonians 51 AD

1, 2 Corinthians 56-57 AD

Romans 58 AD

Ephesians 61 AD

Philemon 61 AD

Colossians 61 AD

1,2 Timothy 63, 66 AD

Titus 63 AD

By 115 AD the four Gospels were recognized as authoritative.

Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria was first to list all 27 books of the NT in 367 AD.

Requirements for a book to be included in the canon were:

For a book to be considered holy scripture on the canonical level, it had to enjoy widespread acceptance among the churches. If a book was only accepted in one region, it did not enter into the New Testament canon. Also, since others in the second century and later were writing books, criteria needed to be applied that would separate these works from the ones that came from the first century: the book needed to date to the time of the apostles. And the book should be connected to an apostle, whether due to authorship by an apostle or association with an apostle (for example, Mark and Luke were associated with Peter and Paul, respectively). Of course, the books also needed to minister to the people in the churches who were hearing them read. This spiritual dimension was likely paramount. Our New Testament books were included in the canon because they spoke so strongly to people that they could not be kept out of the canon. Lastly, the books needed to be deemed suitable for public reading in the church. (Above paragraph is from my notes from Survey of the NT Seminary Class on the formation of the Canon)

One thing must be emphatically stated. The New Testament books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list; on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognizing their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa-at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397-but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities but to codify what was already the general practice of these communities (F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1960, p. 27).

33 posted on 04/11/2016 5:05:21 PM PDT by ealgeone (The)
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To: Steelfish
“After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.” Linus reigned from about A.D. 64

Ok...so Linus was Bishop of Rome. This does not prove the primacy of Rome. There were bishops of other cities as well during this time.

There is no historical evidence that Peter founded the church at Rome. (John Drane, Introducing the New Testament, p403)

34 posted on 04/11/2016 5:26:21 PM PDT by ealgeone (The)
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To: Steelfish; Elsie
All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius, also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter.

Prince of the Apostles???? Another false title by roman catholicism.

You seem to have left out some of the ECFs that disagree with you. Typical of catholic apologetics.

• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]: Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25: 'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

Well, I've had enough fun with refuting your claims....again.

Off to better things tonight.

35 posted on 04/11/2016 5:35:20 PM PDT by ealgeone (The)
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To: Steelfish
You really are one great “internet theologian” that trumps everybody else (scholars, historians, Augustine, Aquinas, Benedict including noted Protestant scholars who converted to Catholicism) who all disagree with you.

Love your AUGUSTINE!!


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

43 posted on 04/11/2016 7:24:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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