Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
|
|
In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
Because in those last few moments of Jesus' life, God was still dealing with mankind as under the Mosaic Law, which Jesus was in the process of fulfilling. The malefactor demonstrated his utter complete trust in Jesus as God, and in prayer appealed to Jesus as Master, and immediately received the promise of being saved, alive in soul and spirit, with Jesus, in Paradise. Clearly, since this affirmation was under the Old Covenant, a baptism of water was not desired or required.
But, contrary to the current misunderstanding of what the purpose and effect of what the water baptism is and does, it was never intended for, nor has it ever effected the accountability, forgiveness, cancellation, dismissal, nor cleansing of a human's sin-debt to God. To connect it with sin in this way is utter foolishness.
Scripture addresses several baptisms. One is the baptism of John, there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the baptism of fire, and a baptism of water.
The question then is, what is the sphere in which water baptism is a matter of concern and of use? Of the various baptisms, the one under consideration is the sphere of of discipleship. And in that sphere, the only functions of water baptism are:
(1) to validate the verbal profession of the subject of his/her allegiance to Jesus as Master, and
(2) a public rite of induction conferring full membership of a heretofore provisional disciple into the local visible Company of The Committed Ones, by the authority of the Godhead as vested in one of the elders of that local Company.
The rite of induction by baptismal immersion in the physical sphere neither effects the forgiveness of sins nor, though spiritual regeneration of the subject is presumed to be a prerequisite, is it proof of spiritual rebirth.
Obviously, the officer of the Company of the Committed cannot forgive the subject's sins nor impart a new spiritual nature to the subject. That is a function reserved to God in the Spirit alone, as shown in the Holy Scriptures.
Pragmatically speaking, this confirmation of induction of a member into the visible Company of Christ-followers, and subject to its authority, the inducted member could be one who only evinces loyalty to Jesus, but has not actually received spiritual rebirth. In fact, None of the initial members of this group had yet been reborn, and actually one of the selected disciples (Judas Iscariot) was a devil, known so to be by the Master Rabbi, Jesus, but nor by his companions. And one other disciple was easily subject to influence by Satanic suggestion. Furthermore, all had very little faith until after the crucifixion of Jesus.
Through history, the membership of the visible local churches has been impure, being a company of professedly "saved" believers, but really being a mixture of both regenerated and unregenerated human souls, a field of wheat and tares, a basket of good fish and bad fish, though they are all of the Kingdom of Heaven and all call themselves "believers.".
In contrast, the human complement of the Kingdom of God and of His Christ is comprised only of faithful friends saved by faith from the Beginning until the time of Jesus' Ascension, and also the souls of truly regenerated believer-disciple-priest-friends of Christ subsequent to the coming of the Holy Ghost in the Spirit-baptism of the first Jerusalem Church.
This Kingdom is not of this visible world. Its locus is in Heaven. It is entered now only by rebirth in The Faith by faith alone, apart from any achievements of the individual of any kind. It only involves a decision based on understanding of the transaction offered by The God: the entirety of one human's sins and sinfulness in exchange for accreditation of all the righteousness of His son, of trading one's soul for everlasting life and the friendship of the Father.
When the event depicted in 1Thess4:13-17 happens (referencing 1Cor 15:51-53) the bodies believers will be transformed into, will they be drawing life from the blood in veins of drawing LIFE from the Spirit?
The devil is too much in the “somehow” details.
This is true. That’s why it’s best to leave it at somehow. Delving into the details can drive you to the devil.
It is the Spirit that gives life. The Spirit that gave life to the body of Christ when He was raised from the dead is the same Spirit that gives us life through the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Seems sad, though, that Rome failed to include this stuff in the bible when they LATER compiled it.
It is sad that nothing is written in the bible about eating the body of Christ or drinking the blood of Christ. Oh, wait!
John 6
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Matthew 26
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Luke 22
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1 Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink
this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
In Christian humility I would ask you to read the following passages in Hebrews, because the emphasis is clearly upon the sacrifice made ONCE, not continued or repeated, and especially not done here on Earth but it was through His own blood that the dealing with sin is RECORDED in the Holy of Holies IN HEAVEN:
Hebrews 7:23-26
Hebrews 9:24-28
Henrews 10:10 and following
Jesus IS our High Priest, alive forever having made the perfect sacrifice of His own sinless blood. That blood was the life in His human body, and He poured it out for our redemption. He need not repeat this or have some human priest continue it for Him because He is the Great High Priest alive forever more.
The body He now occupies in Heaven draws Life from The Spirit of God, not from blood. He sacrificed that blood for our redemption, ONCE for ALL forever.
We do not eat the body of the Great High Priest, we commemorate the body He took to the Cross when we eat the commemorative bread, ONCE for all forever.
It is GOD Who places the spark of His Life in us, not the ingesting of a wheat wafer. This Life need not be replenished daily. Jesus sacrificed His Body, His human body ONCE for all forever. His human body has been transformed and He now is IN that body, in Heaven, drawing His Life from The Spirit Presence, as we shall when 1 Thess 4:13-17 happens and we are transformed in a moment int he twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51 and following).
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Now we get the gist of Paul's admonition! These are bread and wine, taken in a commemorative act. But if one takes these token unworthily, THEN are they guilty of breaking the Levitical law against cannibalism and drinking blood!
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.Again, Paul identifies the bread, not the flesh of the Great High Priest. And Paul directs the attention to spiritual state of being, that a man must examine himself to search his spiritual state before taking the bread and wine as tokens of the sacrifice of The Great High Priest.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. Once for all, forever, The Great High Priest has made the perfect sacrifice. Discerning the body of The Lord ... do you know what that means? If one takes the tokens unworthily, THEN will that one stand guilty of breaking the laws in Leviticus. BUT if one examines himself, knowing he must have a Savior else he is doomed, then is that man taking the tokens in true spiritual connection to that ONCE for ALL, Forever sacrifice by the Great High Priest IN HEAVEN.
At this point some have raised the issue of the real presence during the communion. Jesus said that where two or more are gathered in His name, there is He in the midst of them. He has a real SPIRITUAL BODY PRESENCE when two or more are gathered to take the Passover Seder meal in His name, since the Once for ALL, forever event of the Cross.
Faith used to be tied a lot more tightly to the ministry of a church than it does today. The standard way of coming to believe used to be at the witness of the church which generally had handy arrangements to do a water baptism with little or no delay. Now it frequently happens at the witness of the bible. Delays in water baptism are frequent today. Mine took over a year from my time of belief before I came to a congregation where I had a stable enough relationship to do it. I remember it because I did it on St. Patrick’s Day. I didn’t wear green, though now I have a bible promise that even when I grow old I will be “full of sap and very green.” Some people think I’m sappy today.
O’Redneck
The Apostle Paul recommends it.
That said, I do think that scripture leans more toward Mary and Joseph having a regular marriage after the birth of Jesus. One can cite children, Jewish tradition, etc.
But what would others call her if she had children by more than one Father? I think that always was what was being avoided.
I’m not sure the danger of cannibalism ever enters the picture. Not discerning the body could simply mean not understanding that the Lord desires to minister the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on Calvary to you, but you’re not taking the right attitude such that you can accept it.
Spurning a gift of the Lord generally means getting turned (for a period) to the other guy. The devil.
If Mary had children by another man, we would give her every benefit of doubt and say that she married again after Joseph died. Mary is THE blessed Mother of Jesus.
“The Apostle Paul recommends it. “
Paul does not recommend it to married couples. He tells them to have sex regularly, except for brief intervals devoted to prayer.
To have the special child by the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be to cheat on Joseph. The bible says so. Such cheating could only happen with people.
Yes, in general “to those who can bear it.”
It’s a ministry situation to some. To others, physical marriage is a blessing that bears fruit, though differently. There are ministry couples; for example Priscilla and Aquila.
The single would be able to brave more dangers because he does not need to care for a spouse and family. Paul was certainly that way. But a wife provides an additional perspective.
God can gift a believer into either situation.
Married couples should have sex.
Both are good.
And also “it is better to marry than to burn [with passion]”. Some folks are more inclined to sex. That isn’t a curse. It is a situation fraught with danger, but not a curse.
They were referring to the Father of Jesus AND Joseph (or any other man) also fathering children by her when the father of her first child was still living.
They were trying to avoid the charge that would come from that.
He also doesn’t recommend having children by other than your own husband. So we’ve got us an unusual situation here.
They were concerned with avoiding the accusations of their age.
What would those people of that era have called her?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.