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To: crumudgeonous

“The Church on earth is the visible continuation of that body which Christ established, and which has a shared faith and whose members are in communion with one another. It has Bishops, priests, and deacons which guide it”

That much is true. (Local churches have elders and deacons. Bishops / Elders / Presbyters are all the same thing as described in the New Testament, and probably Pastor is as well. Nowhere is an office of “priest” found as the term applies generally to all believers as a nation of priests. Priests offer sacrifices which is applicable to all believers.)

To clarify your definition of “Church” though, do you think the church is made up of anything other than people?

“it upholds the Apostolic Faith and Tradition”

That is true to the extent of how the words are commonly used, but not in the sense it is purported to mean. There is no Apostolic faith or tradition that is not found within the scriptures. Peter specifically and explicitly stated his purpose for writing was to keep his doctrine in remembrance after his departure (i.e. death).

“It is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.”

One? Yes. It is a “body” made of body parts which require it to be one in order for those parts to form a body.

Holy? By virtue of Christ’s atonement, yes.

Catholic? Not as a brand name. But in the Biblical meaning that beyond the local manifestation of the church, there is a universal Church made up of mortal, imperfect believers on earth AND perfected believers in Heaven awaiting the redemption of their bodies (i.e. resurrection). Christ is the singular head of the body. (Only the Satanic beasts of the apocalypse have multiple heads.) And since the earthly and Heavenly church are One, there is no need for a second head on earth.

Apostolic? As I said before, believers today only exercise apostolic authority by proclaiming what the apostles recorded in scripture and by being obedient to the scriptures . There are certain requirements specified in the New Testament to qualify as an apostle: being witness of Christ’s resurrection, miraculous signs confirming their claim of apostleship, and being personally taught by Christ. There have been false claims of apostleship ever since the church began, and we are instructed to test such claims. These are the tests. No one today meets these qualifications. However, the church does have apostolic authority to consult in the writings of the apostles which are scripture.


71 posted on 01/04/2016 6:00:17 PM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: unlearner

In the New Testament, the terms “bishop” and “Presbyter” (”priest” being nothing but an English derivation of “Presbyter”) are often used in more loose terms. For example, St. John the Apostle refers to himself as “The Elder” (Presbyter). But there were clearly three levels of authority in the Church: 1. Apostles; 2. Presbyters/Bishops; 3 Deacons. By the time of St. Ignatius (who was disciple of the Apostle John, and who was martyred in 112 a.d.), the terminology crystalized to the forms we now know them. The term bishop was already being used exclusively for those who were successors to the Apostles, and who had the highest level of authority, then you had Presbyters, who function like sub-bishops. Their primary role is to serve as representatives of the bishop, in the bishop’s absence, but when the bishop is present, their roles (both liturgical and administrative) are greatly reduced and subordinated, and then you still have the deacons.

If you read St. Ignatius’ Epistles, this is very clear. These epistles were considered Scripture by many in the early Church, and so are very important, even if they eventually were not included among the books of the New Testament. He was the first bishop of Antioch after the Apostles, and that city was the first center of Christianity after Jerusalem, and so his position in the early Church was highly regarded.

You will also find that he clearly states that the Eucharist really is the body and blood of Christ, and that no group can be call a Church if it does not have a bishop, with priests and deacons. Furthermore, he says that no one who follows another into a schism will inherit the Kingdom of God, and no one who follows heretical doctrine’s is “on the side of the Passion.”

The Church has Christ as its head, and the Holy Spirit as its guide.


72 posted on 01/05/2016 5:45:57 AM PST by crumudgeonous
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