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To: unlearner

You clearly did not bother reading the original post. If the second commandment is talking about all images, that means we cannot make or have them. So either you must oppose all images, or else you cannot apply that passage to anything that is not an idol.

The Ark is referred to as “the Footstool” of God’s feet:

“Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building” (1 Chronicles 28:2).

“We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength” (131[132]:7-8).

And the Psalms specifically command us to worship (literally, bow before) the Ark:

“Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship the footstool of His feet; for He is holy” (Psalm 98[99]:5).

And we see that the Israelites in fact did bow before the Ark:

“And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads” (Joshua 7:6).

People did see the ark when it was carried in processions. It may be that the ark was not carried in processions after the building of the Temple, but it was was so carried prior to that, and we have accounts of it, particularly with David dancing before the ark.


15 posted on 01/01/2016 12:22:52 PM PST by crumudgeonous
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To: crumudgeonous

When the ark was not in the holiest of holies it was covered:

Numbers 4:6
Then they shall put on it a covering of badger skins, and spread over that a cloth entirely of blue; and they shall insert its poles.

They could not look on the ark itself. So when David refers to the ark this way, he is not contemplating himself or the people entering the holiest of holies nor uncovering the ark in procession.

Further, when Joshua bowed “before the ark” you are talking about a time when God was present in front of Israel in a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night, and He would come down and meet in the tabernacle of meeting:

Exodus 33:9
And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

God does not dwell in a temple made by hands. He certainly does not dwell in crosses and images of “saints”.

“So either you must oppose all images, or else you cannot apply that passage to anything that is not an idol.”

I am not applying them to anything that is not an idol. When someone bows to the objects (not God who met with men above the mercy seat), when men pray toward them (not the temple which God put His name on and designated as a meeting place between God and man), and makes offerings such as incense and flowers to such objects (rather than the only sacrifices which God ordained to be offered to Him alone at the place He designated, in the time and manner which He designated), then such objects ARE IDOLS.

Apparently, our difference on this lies in what distinguishes an idol from any other random object. According to the theory you are putting forward, the acts themselves are not idolatry but only if the person thinks of an object as an idol. If that is not what you meant, then you need to clarify. My position is that the acts themselves turn the objects into idols even if the person knows that the image of Mary is just an image. This is because God said not to bow down to these images.

These acts are still idolatry regardless of the good intentions of the idolater.

But for sake of clarity, please answer whether it is possible for someone to commit idolatry by worshipping an image of Christ, Mary, or the apostles? Do you believe it CAN happen?


17 posted on 01/01/2016 12:50:24 PM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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