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To: crumudgeonous

When the ark was not in the holiest of holies it was covered:

Numbers 4:6
Then they shall put on it a covering of badger skins, and spread over that a cloth entirely of blue; and they shall insert its poles.

They could not look on the ark itself. So when David refers to the ark this way, he is not contemplating himself or the people entering the holiest of holies nor uncovering the ark in procession.

Further, when Joshua bowed “before the ark” you are talking about a time when God was present in front of Israel in a cloud by day and pillar of fire by night, and He would come down and meet in the tabernacle of meeting:

Exodus 33:9
And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

God does not dwell in a temple made by hands. He certainly does not dwell in crosses and images of “saints”.

“So either you must oppose all images, or else you cannot apply that passage to anything that is not an idol.”

I am not applying them to anything that is not an idol. When someone bows to the objects (not God who met with men above the mercy seat), when men pray toward them (not the temple which God put His name on and designated as a meeting place between God and man), and makes offerings such as incense and flowers to such objects (rather than the only sacrifices which God ordained to be offered to Him alone at the place He designated, in the time and manner which He designated), then such objects ARE IDOLS.

Apparently, our difference on this lies in what distinguishes an idol from any other random object. According to the theory you are putting forward, the acts themselves are not idolatry but only if the person thinks of an object as an idol. If that is not what you meant, then you need to clarify. My position is that the acts themselves turn the objects into idols even if the person knows that the image of Mary is just an image. This is because God said not to bow down to these images.

These acts are still idolatry regardless of the good intentions of the idolater.

But for sake of clarity, please answer whether it is possible for someone to commit idolatry by worshipping an image of Christ, Mary, or the apostles? Do you believe it CAN happen?


17 posted on 01/01/2016 12:50:24 PM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: unlearner

What historical facts do you have in mind? I think most Protestant Biblical Scholars would agree that this psalm is clear about the Ark. Look at verse 1, just for starters:

“The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubim; let the earth be moved.”

What do you suppose that is in reference to?


18 posted on 01/01/2016 1:14:45 PM PST by crumudgeonous
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To: unlearner

What makes an image an idol is when it is an image of a false god. Images of Christ, the Saints, or biblical scense are clearly not images of false Gods. We honor these images in the same way that we honor the Gospel book, and for the same reason.

Do you object to saluting your flag, or pledging allegiance to it? Why is that not idolatry, in your opinion?


19 posted on 01/01/2016 1:14:45 PM PST by crumudgeonous
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To: unlearner

And to answer you last question, if someone was sacrificing chickens before an icon, that would be idolatry. If they believe the image itself was a god, that would be idolatry. The only example I am aware of of something like that would be in Santeria, but there you have Christian images being used to worship pagan deities.


20 posted on 01/01/2016 1:14:46 PM PST by crumudgeonous
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To: unlearner
But for sake of clarity, please answer whether it is possible for someone to commit idolatry by worshipping an image of Christ, Mary, or the apostles? Do you believe it CAN happen?

of course it can, but it certainly insn't condoned by the church

41 posted on 01/01/2016 3:12:15 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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