Mary, Mother of God

The Sacred Page ^ | December 29, 2015

[Trailerpark Badass]

Did you misspell your username? The mods could probably help you fix that.

[ealgeone]

No.

[DennisR]

So she is alive?

[BlueDragon]

bookmarked

[Iscool]

If you are so stupid to think that any man would go in where the Holy Spirit went first and violate that sacred space you are deceived by Satan himself.

Mary and the Holy Spirit did not have sexual relations...

And if they did, Mary was no longer a virgin...

[Iscool]

There’s also the little matter of matter of Mary being guilty of adultery if she slept with Joseph after giving herself to the Holy Spirit.

Mary and the Holy Spirit did not have sex...They were not betrothed to each other...They did not get married...

Mat_19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

The Holy Spirit is not flesh and blood...The Holy Spirit and Mary did not become 'one flesh'...What a fantasy you guys have going...

[Iscool]

You two are going to make the anti-Catholics very angry if you keep presenting them with the facts in the form or truth. None of them like having their world view challenged, it makes them very uncomfortable.

Facts??? Like the fact that pope Frank is God on earth??? You guys are a trip...

[Iscool]

let's take a look at one of the verses that protestants like to throw out as defending their position: Mat 1:25 and knew her not until (till) she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Notice it specifically says it continued up to a certain time. It does not say or imply that the condition changed afterward.

It most certainly does...

:up to (a particular time)
—used to indicate the time when something will happen, become true, etc.

What school did you go to???

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. Will Jesus's reign end after His enemies are under his feet?

Well, what does he say??? He says he will reign til he has put all his enemies under his feet...And he says it numerous times in the scriptures...Just because you don't get it doesn't mean the bible is wrong...

Gen_3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Will Adam eat bread after he dies?

HuH??? It says Adam will eat bread til he dies...Then something changes...You know what that is??? He no longer eats, anything...

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michol the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death. How many children did she have after she dies?

Will you get a copy of the scriptures that is not perverted so you don't end up with these goofy questions???

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

Hopefully you can get it from that verse...

We see in Colossians Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; Jesus is referred to as the first Born of God? How many other children did God have?

HaHaHa...It says nothing about children in the verse...

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Who you trying to fool, other Catholics???

But the fact is, God has millions upon millions of other children...

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You make this fun...

[Hacksaw]

IsDork

[verga]

I call it “protestant blinders.” Anything and I mean anything at all that presents the Catholic Church correct about even the smallest thing must be wrong, and they will go through the most elaborate mental gymnastics to maintain their personal fiction.

[ealgeone]

Sorry you don't like the Greek....but it is what it is.

The context of the NT proves it.

What I posted disproves the catholic position. No two ways about it.

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations and had other children.

I'm not sure why that upsets catholics so much.

[verga]

Your post does nothing to change what I posted. The Greek is clear Joseph and Mary had other children. The context of the NT indicates Joseph and Mary had other children.

Luke 2:41-52 The Boy Jesus at the Temple 41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it.
44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him.
46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.
48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[a] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Where were the other children? The text tells us that Jesus was twelve years old He would have been traveling with the adult males preparing for his Mitzvah. The next oldest child would have been at best around age 10 and would have been traveling not just with the women, but directly with Mary.
No mention is made of these children being on the journey, left with relatives while Mary and Joseph searched or on the return journey.

You also failed to address as to whether Jesus will reign after His enemies are at His feet or how Many children Michael had after her death.

And the biggest points you ignore is that the word "until/ till" does not require that the condition change and the first born does not require that there be a second born. Ishmael was the first born of Abraham and Hagar, but there Is no mention of any other children by Hagar. Isaac is the first born of Sarah, but she had no other children.
The quote from exodus makes it clear "Firstborn" refers to the child that opens the womb.
Stop grasping at straws.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

Joseph and Mary had sexual relations and had other children.

The angel told her, "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor[a] with God.
31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
and name him Jesus.
32 He will be a great man
and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
the throne of his ancestor David.
33 Your son will be king of Jacob’s people forever,
and his kingdom will never end.”
34 Mary asked the angel, "How can this be? I'm a virgin."

The angel told Mary that she would become pregnant. Why would Mary object, since she was engaged to be married? And what would being a virgin have to do with anything?

Look through the writings of the early Christians. This has always been interpreted as contradicting her vow of perpetual virginity. Even Luther believed that Mary was ever-virgin.

[metmom]

We’re actually doing sheet rock and painting my son’s house today.

[ealgeone]

Why aren't the other kids mentioned in the passage you cite?

Because the focus is on Christ in this passage. Again, context is the key.

And the biggest points you ignore is that the word "until/ till" does not require that the condition change and the first born does not require that there be a second born.

Nor does it prohibit something from happening.

The first born does not prohibit another being born.

Again, context is the key to understanding what the passage says.

Ishmael was the first born of Abraham and Hagar, but there Is no mention of any other children by Hagar. Isaac is the first born of Sarah, but she had no other children.

Ok. However, the NT records Joseph and Mary had other children.

The quote from exodus makes it clear "Firstborn" refers to the child that opens the womb.

For context:

“Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me.” Exodus 13:2 NASB

Ok.

But it does not preclude other children. Notice this word also applies to the firstborn beast as well.

If you try to limit this to only one child that means there was a one child policy in place in the OT and we know that wasn't the case.

Stop grasping at straws.

I'm not the one grasping. You are.

You're ignoring the Greek and the context.

You also failed to address as to whether Jesus will reign after His enemies are at His feet or how Many children Michael had after her death.

One issue at a time.

[metmom]

The angel also told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

It would be a strange command indeed if she was really betrothed to the Holy Spirit and considered to be e spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Also to not fear to take her as his wife includes the implicite understanding of all that entailed.

Nowhere do we see Joseph being commanded or reminded to keep her a virgin after the birth of Jesus.

Additionally, Jesus is called the son of the carpenter by the people who knew Him.

I’m sure that when Mary turned up pregnant before the actual marriage ceremony, it caused quite the scandal. I can just imagine people’s reactions when she told them she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. Sure she was. sure her child would be the Messiah. Great excuse Mary.... It happens all the time. Joseph didn’t believe her until the angel appeared to him in a dream and confirmed what she said. I doubt many other people did either.

[ealgeone]

According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

The following is from wikipedia:

The document presents itself as written by James: "I, James, wrote this history in Jerusalem."[3] The purported author is thus James, the brother of Jesus, but scholars have established that the work was not written by the person to whom it is attributed.[4]

That conclusion is based on the style of the language and the fact that the author describes certain activities as contemporary Jewish customs that probably did not exist. For example, the work suggests there were consecrated temple virgins in Judaism, similar to the Vestal Virgins in pagan Rome, although this is unlikely to have been a practice in mainstream Judaism.[citation needed] Conversely, some Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics argue that that the Old Testament shows that consecrated virginity had been practiced in Judaism since the days of the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 2:22),[5] and the idea of Mary being a consecrated temple virgin is not far-fetched.

For context the quote from 1 Samuel 2:22

22 Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the doorway of the tent of meeting. I hope catholics aren't relying upon this to prove their point.

Not sure where catholics get virgins in this passage. Laying doesn't mean they were taking a nap!

That this was rejected by the early church is evidenced by it not being included in the canon.

If roman catholics really believed this to be the case, why wasn't it included in the canon at Trent??

For the catholic to continue to argue otherwise is to neglect the context of the NT on those passages that deal with Joseph and Mary having other children.

[ealgeone]

LOL! Sheetrock is serious work. You’ll be done well before we have an answer for sure.

[RobbyS]

. As the prayer goes: blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, the one through whom God was made flesh, we ask you to pray for us, now and at the hour of our death.

[RobbyS]

But it is not a fact that Joseph and Mary had other children.