Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: vladimir998; Mrs. Don-o

Mrs. Don-o said:

“The fact is that nothing “quoted” by Scalfari was actually “said” by Pope Francis.”

“Only a person seriously into defamation would find that fact irrelevant.”

Yet, I provided a link to the Zenit transcript of the letter (post 129) that Bergoglio actually did say:

“First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that - and itis the fundamental thing - the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience.”

She falsely accused the author of the article of serious defamation; yet you blindly jumped onto her bandwagon.


153 posted on 12/29/2015 8:40:50 PM PST by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies ]


To: ebb tide

ebb tide, again you are posting to me instead of talking ONLY to the person you are actually talking to. You seem to have a fixation.


161 posted on 12/30/2015 7:01:51 AM PST by vladimir998 (Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies ]

To: ebb tide; vladimir998
First, presenting as a quote what somebody did NOT say, is always a falsehood, and if one knew that, it is a lie. It is likewise a defamation if the false quote reflected badly on the person being quoted.

So my point remains.

Second, Pope Francis can be accused of ambiguity in his published letter, but not an outright denial of dogma.(We might express frustration that he often fails to put his statements into the kind of clear declarative sentences needed for either doctrine or heresy; but grammatical incoherence is a separate issue.) Simply copying what you posted, here's what he said:

"(1)The mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; (2) the question for one who doesn't believe in God lies in obeying one's conscience. (3) Sin, also for those who don't have faith, exists when one goes against one's conscience."

(1) Is true.

(2) Is a question. Indicated by the words, "The question ... lies in ..."

(3) Is true.

Does Pope Francis actually delineate the answer to this question at #2? He does not --- owing to the ambiguity of his statement. He says "the question.... lies in obeying one's conscience," but it does not state that the "answer" lies in obeying one's conscience.

At this point, I can imagine irate people waving their hands in the air and saying, "But he must have meant 'the answer is', who would be so obtuse not to realize that?"

Still, 'question' and 'answer' are not synonyms. This remark of Pope Francis' does not --- as far as I can see --- give us any further definition; neither does he try to illustrate what he means and what he does not mean, using examples or casuistry.

Saying that the 'answer' lies in obeying one's conscience, would be true --- even in the case of a false conscience --- if the defects in the conscience were not the fault of the person, i.e. not the product of malice, pride, sloth, lack of moral diligence, etc. Say your parents taught you that Christianity is both bogus and wicked. Say you are not old enough or mature/experienced enough to seriously suspect that your parents might have been wrong.

You are still objecively in the wrong. This error of yours is objectively gravely harmful to you and to others (as you perhaps influence them in an anti-Christian direction). But you have not committed a (subjectively) damnable sin by following your (erroneous) conscience, because you lacked the requisite knowledge.

This falls under the category of "invincible ignorance." All Catholic moral teaching recognizes that only voluntary and free acts are imputable.

But that's beside the point. The point is that Pope Francis doesn't get into fine definition or legitimate casuistry, he just makes an unsatisfactorily ambiguous statement. It fails as clear teaching, but it's not heresy, which is something both unambiguous and deliberate.

To say that this is heresy is incorrect. To say "The Pope has no business being so ambiguous; he sows sows dangerous confusion when he says this kind of thing" --- well, as far as I can see, that would be true.

163 posted on 12/30/2015 1:39:45 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 153 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson