Posted on 12/17/2015 6:45:49 PM PST by delacoert
All I can do is suggest that perhaps your and the late Dr. Robert Reymond’s understanding of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” is not as informed on all points as it could be.
Well, if my understanding is being compared to Dr. Reymond's, I can only say that you stand me in good company. However, being "informed" as to all the points of the CCC is not in question here, really. What IS in question, however, is the issue presented in 841 as to the relationship between Catholics and Muslims. 841 PLAINLY states that "together with us, they adore the one, merciful God...." as noted below:
CCC 841
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
The understanding here is not something that has to related to some other passage -- this stands on its own. It SAYS Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. I'm not saying this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church says it.
My question that seems to not be answered here by Catholics who are supposed to be instructed by the CCC is which God do they worship? The God of Creation? The One Holy Triune God? Or, do they worship the God of the Muslims?
I"m sorry if that seems to be so difficult to understand; it's a simple question, really, and it's a question spurred by a doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church. As it's put by CCC 841, Catholics and Muslims worship the same "God." I hope that's not the case! Either Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims, according to what the Catholic Church is apparently teaching, or they do NOT worship the same "God" as Muslims -- but that then puts them at odds with the Catholic Church.
I just want to know which God is being worshipped... that's all.
Hoss
I worship God, who is LOVE itself. Does not gel with a god that screams KILL THE INFIDELS. No, they are not the same at all.
Catholics worship the same God as Muslims IF the Muslim is worshipping a loving peaceful God....they miss the fullness of faith when the fail to acknowledge Jesus, but the same. HOWEVER, if they are worshipping jihadi maniacs who hear allah telling them to kill the infidels, then they are worshipping a false god. So, it seems many are following the devil, when they preach hate. My church may not clearly state this, but it’s what I believe and I am Catholic.
I'd be delighted to see any 'delight' in the following...
| There is only one name by which men must saved. If men who never hear of the Lord can be saved, why bother with evangelism? Better yet, why did He have to die? The answer to your question is YES, such a man is damned because the wrath of God abides on all sons of Adam. When Adam fell, we all fell (see Romans 5). We are dead in trespasses and sins the moment of our conception (Psalm 51:5), so all of us start damned. In Ephesians 2, Paul says we are “children of wrath.†Even so, in Romans 1 Paul teaches that all men are without excuse, so no man will be able to stand in judgment and claim he didn’t know. And we can be sure, the Lord doesn’t wink at sin. He declared to Moses that He would not “clear the guilty.†(see Exodus 34) God is under no obligation to save any man or to ensure that all hear the good news of Jesus Christ. That a man ever hears of Jesus Christ and saving gospel is pure grace. “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.†(Ephesians 2:8-10) |
Still doesn't wash -- not sure if this is coming across: If Catholics are worshipping the same God as Muslims, Catholics worship a FALSE GOD. Muslims DO NOT worship God Almighty. Despite the spin, CCC 841 is clear: it states Muslims adore the same God as Catholics.
So...
If Muslims worship the God of Creation, they're actually NOT Muslims... they're Christian.
If Catholics worship the same "God" as Muslims, then... there's blasphemy going on.
Hoss
Who?
Hoss
I also ask where in the Bible is heaven described as having non-stop sex with 72 virgins. Does that sound like God? That sounds like a sick pervert.
You are correct sir. If I recall correctly, there was a time in which EVERYONE knew the truth (Romans 1) but deliberately rejected it. What we see today, is simply the result of that rejection. When these people are evangelized, what do most of them do? They reject the truth, the same way their ancestors of long ago did. If ignorance is bliss, (and it is not) why preach the gospel? If they are not already lost sinners, why tell them the truth, and give them a chance to reject it, and THEN become lost sinners?
CCC #841 just does not serve as evidence of Roman Catholic doctrine that Catholics and Muslims worship the same “God.”
The Catechism section 839-845 is titled, “The Church and non-Christians,” and explicitly states that Jewish people, Muslims and other non-Christians have not received the Gospel.
American Catholic bishops have stated that theological opinion was not intended to be a part of CCC.
Really.
Then, please explain the portion of 841 that states, "...and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Who exactly is "us"... and who is "they"? What does "with" mean?
Please. READ IT. It says, in total:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
Muslims do NOT acknowledge "the Creator" -- they acknowledge Allah. Not God.
So please explain how this statement says ANYTHING other than exactly what it says? What it exactly says is, Catholics and Muslims adore the same God.
And, logically, since Muslims do NOT worship the One, True Living God, and according to 841 Catholics adore the same God as Muslims, which "God" exactly do Catholics adore?
explicitly states that Jewish people, Muslims and other non-Christians have not received the Gospel.
That's not the issue. Nice attempt at a Strawman, but no luck today. The issue is 841 and its statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same "merciful God."
Since Muslims worship Allah, who is NOT God, then according to 841, Catholics do too. Is this so?
Hoss
Much of the world is ready to receive the Antichrist. I shake my head when, on rare occasion, I can stomach to watch Jack van Impe as he tries to mix the two. It’s like he’s had a major stroke or something. A completely bizarro world he has cooked up in his own mind. He fights against Chrislam while ignoring all the shows he did where he basically promoted it with this same kind of antichrist nonsense.
Truly bizarre to watch.
You look it up. You’re the one who’s been swallowing the anti-Catholic propaganda. Try Catholic Answers and other Catholic apologetics sites. They will have references both to the anti-Catholic fabulists and the historians.
...and a tired one; too!
Some days I wonder why I bother.
I havent seen his show in a couple years since I got rid of cable
But, he was sympathetic to the Catholic Church many times, despite clear doctrinal errors, and now, the pope himself is promoting chrislam, along with rick warren, apostate other charismatics, methodists, presbyterians, church of christ, congregational churches, whatever, idiot jews who really just want to be left alone are going along with it not realizing they are endorsing chrislam, too...
notice how there is no JEWISH inclusion into this new ‘religion’ of chrislam...
Actually, no--that's not how this works. You made the claim; you back it up. Otherwise we're left to believe your claim is false.
Hoss
Me too. It seems like such a simple thing to admit.
Hoss
God is Triune, while Allah is singular....the Jews also believe God is singular, do they not? Don’t Christians believe that we worship the same God as the Jews?
True. However, the Triune God is pre-imaged in the Jewish Scriptures, they only lack the faith to recognize Him. Jesus didn't have to invent Scripture to substantiate His identity. He only had to explain what they failed to see in what had been written for centuries before His birth.
Islam came after Jesus and not only changed the nature of God but completely changed Christ's mission and intent.
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