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To: af_vet_1981
Preeminence in the last message, good news, gospel, of the LORD Jesus Christ to those who believe in his name

Again, I think this is setting things at odds with each other that are not in conflict, either in Scripture, or in the evangelical understanding of Scripture. Works are not in opposition to faith.  They are the expression of faith. You yourself have said as much. So I cannot understand what you hope to gain, as between you and me, by talking this approach that seems to set the two, faith and works, in opposition to each other.  

As for a methodology of counting words, word counts can have meaning, but not in a vacuum.  The Lord knew His apostles would also be read in all the assemblies for centuries to come.  The context has been set by that apostolic teaching. Justification is not by works but by faith, because that is the only means of acquiring it, according to practically everything Paul wrote, and others as well. The Apocalypse cannot possibly contradict that.  Jesus is the Author of both.

Therefore, the emphasis on deeds in Revelation 2-3 must be understood in that context.  It is not about individual justification but the life of the local assembly as a whole.  We do indeed want our light to shine before men, that they may see our good works, and praise God and be drawn to Him through our witness.  Israel was that city on a hill that could not be hid, the light of the world. But even though the nation as a whole rejected their Messiah, yet there was a remnant.  God judged Israel, took away her ability to give light, very like removing a candlestick.  But He still saved the elect who lived within her borders.

So you see, it is important to be able to make these distinctions, and it cannot be done by playing "Scriptural Gotcha."  What Jesus clearly cared about most was us, even while we were still sinners:
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(Romans 5:8-9)
Consider a beloved child.  You tell your child they must behave, or there will be unpleasant consequences.  You are serious.  It is very important. But now the misbehaving child, who is still your child, is about to be run over by an oncoming train.  You would be willing, if your love was true, to give up your own life to ensure the child lived.  That's how you know what is really important to God: Christ died for you.  That's the Good News.  

I think there are many people who think are saved by believing they are saved

I have heard you say this before, and as an evangelical, I have to tell you, I don't know any evangelical who believes that.  It just sounds goofy. We are not saved because we believe in our own belief. We are saved because we believe in Jesus.  He's the reliable one.  Not us.  

And I've been through great doubt.  I tried repeatedly to make things right between God and me by my own efforts. You know where it led? Despair. Giving up. A point came where I knew I needed a miracle, and I got one:
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Luke 11:11-13)
God is generous with us.  Far more generous than we expect Him to be, because we are so often dull to the greatness of His goodness.  Don't underestimate what God is willing to do in response to even the tiniest amount of faith. All sins are mortal, in that our life is in God, and sin separates us from that life, and so kills us, if we stand on our own. But Jesus has paid the price for every one of those sins. We do not stand on our own.  We stand in Him by faith.

Peace,

SR



500 posted on 11/14/2015 3:27:39 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
emphasis on deeds in Revelation 2-3 must be understood in that context. It is not about individual justification but the life of the local assembly as a whole.

According to your proposed exegesis, none of the Messiah's words to the seven churches apply to individuals, only to the assemblies as a whole. An assembly must remember, repent, and do the first works to live. Otherwise it dies. The Messiah stands at the door and knocks. If "anyone" hears His voice and opens the door, it is presumably the door to the whole assembly in this proposal. And then He sups with the individual who opened the door to the assembly, or with everyone in the assembly. Perhaps there is a threshold. If ten righteous are found in the assembly it lives; otherwise it is overthrown.

I think the idea of each assembly having salvation and eternal life as corporate entities that can then be removed is rather undeveloped in scripture. "He who has ears to hear" seems quite individualistic to me, as much as "any man."

503 posted on 11/14/2015 7:21:11 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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