Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
Amen. Without Christ, a person is nothing. Mary will not do anything for a person.
I just do not understand the worship of Mary. Sure, she was the mother of Jesus-not God- but she can not do anything. Nothing.
They lie to themselves when they deny it and to others.
You people keep saying you can’t separate the humanity from the divinity of Jesus...
I don’t recall ever writing the words, “you can’t separate the humanity from the divinity of Jesus.” If you would look at my comment again, though, you will see the words: “God left the body of Jesus at His death.” I agree that Jesus’ divine spirit separated from His body at His death. I also agree that the divinity of Jesus was not created in Mary; that it was placed there by God. This is all clearly revealed in Scripture.
Exactly...
Perhaps not...But it is posted on this thread...It's posted on every thread dealing with that topic...
“Your” interpretation. It has no more validity than the interpretations of Jim Jones, David, Koresh, or Joel Osteen or what Jeremiah Wright has to say.
God gave the Church to interpret and select what books are His word in assembling the books in the Bible. We have ONE Church, ONE interpretation and ONE truth.
And who carried Jesus in her spotless womb?
Of course, Mary is connected to Christ and thus — Christianity.
From the Cross, Jesus gave his mother to John and thus to all of us.
Mary tells us in the Bible:
“Do whatever he tells you.” Her last words.
No contradiction at all. She always lifts things up to her son.
Doesn’t always work.
Great post. Thank you.
Baloney.
There's not ONE church because the Orthodox and Rome disagree on major points of doctrine.
There's not One truth in Catholicism because Jesus and Scripture are THE Truth and Catholicism claims more.
And there's certainly not ONE interpretation because interpretations have changed over the millennia of RCC history.
Mary was not sinless.
She didn’t need to be to fulfill prophecy.
She just needed to be virgin and have the correct blood lines.
So Jesus telling us to follow Him doesn’t count for much does it?
And the FATHER telling us to hear Him doesn’t count either?
We have to obey him because MARY told us, not because the Father or Jesus told us?
That is a wrong interpretation of the Bible.
Where do you get these false ideas? A pamphlet perhaps?
No, He specifically gave Mary to John and John to Mary.
There is NOTHING in that passage that lends itself to the interpretation that Catholicism gives it.
ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
The only wrong interpretation is the one that misinterprets the Greek.
Mary wasn’t sinless. She herself admitted that she needed a Savior. SHE acknowledged her sinfulness.
Jesus isn’t so fragile that He needed a sinless mother to carry Him. If that it the case, then Catholics have a really weak Jesus.
She didn’t in her first promise for praying the rosary.. She promised things to those who SERVE HER.. Unless she was mistranslated in the ‘how to pray the rosary’ instruction manual a Roman Catholic handed me.
Who says this Mary is pointing genuine Lamb? Not me..
I believe this Mary points to a false christ- an ‘antichrist’ - an ‘instead of’ Christ.. That belief comes with the word ‘anti’ can mean ‘instead of’
One that shares the Words and Deeds but has been created in image of Rome. That is what really good counterfeits would look like- only way to tell the fake from the genuine is hold it up to the Light’ and it isn’t hard .. Just humbling. And it requires study and testing and proving ALL things. Most wont want to do that..
That was my point - and Paul warns of another Jesus and another gospel being believed so it isn’t like the world of believers arent warned.
Rome’s Mary points to a Jesus..I agree with that- And if that Mary lies in her promises for praying the rosary, contradicting Scripture, then she must point to a false Jesus. Because no lie is of the Truth. And that is what happens with her very first promise- no more complicated than that. It does get hairy for believers if they get to that point, though.
You don’t believe that. He led me to it. Thanks to Him for using Rome’s Mary and her words, attributed to her, outside of scripture, published and distributed with rosary beads..
People should be more careful who gets those- little kids won’t ask,seek or knock- and won’t test and prove all things like an adult on a journey will..
I thank Him for showing me Truth- He truly sets one free..and one place He sets one free is from ‘religion’.
That nice Roman Catholic was a blessing and vessel that He used to call me out of Babylon. And because of it, I understand Him and why Christianity starts with a false premise this very day that hides genuine Truth.
Genuine Trutg that Jew and Gentile could have their eyes opened fully, and be able to see how we did inherit lies from our father’s that have no value and vain..
But people are comfortable with their traditions of men. And their Mary and their Jesus..
It would mess up their entire world view, protestants,Jews, Muslims included. And nobody can come out of Babylon until they realize they are in Babylon.
Most don’t see it
I have been blessed to see it! All for His Glory!
HalleluYah!
I didn’t ask what Mary was. After reading what John Calvin said, I now understand why some would be uncomfortable with the expression *mother of God*.
Do you believe that the son of Mary is God? And as such, Mary can be called the mother of Jesus, who is God in the second person of the Trinity?
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