Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Oldest Hymn to Mary (early christian worship)
Patheos Standing on my head ^ | November 6, 2015 | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer


Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK

One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivism”. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism” is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early church”.

The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditions”. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.

Their idea of the “early church” was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.

One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!

Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church” was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.

One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!

Except it wasn’t.

Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.

The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.

In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.

C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary” in Christian prayer by several centuries.

Here's the text:

On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ

Full text:
Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν
εὐσπλαγχνίαν
καταφεύγομεν
Θεοτὸκε· τὰς ἡμῶν
ἱκεσίας μὴ παρ-
ίδῃς ἐν περιστάσει
ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ κινδύνου
λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς
μόνη ἁγνὴ
μόνη εὐλογημένη.
In English:
Beneath your
compassion
we take refuge,
Theotokos! Our
prayers, do not despise
in necessities,
but from danger
deliver us,
only pure,
only blessed one.

Here it is set to music:

Sub tuum praesidium

Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.

What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.

The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.”

Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.

In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos” was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.

That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos” was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.

You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church” then Marian devotion had better be part of it!


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Orthodox Christian; Worship
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 241-260261-280281-300 ... 541-545 next last
To: Rurudyne

well and truly stated! Thank you for ‘wading in’.


261 posted on 11/09/2015 1:27:42 PM PST by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
After so many examples, we are seeing your postings as a means to obfuscate, but as yet we do not know whether you are obfuscating so your beliefs will not be exposed or if you obfuscate because in your mind you are our teacher, and thus you disdain entering into frank communication.

I would ask if you actually comprehend the following which you have now posted more than once without any explanation: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Your cryptic posting method leaves us seeing you as unable to understand the complexity of the passage thus unable to explain it. As a catholic 'apologist' do you even believe someone can be 'in Him' in this life, without having trudged through catholic purgatory? As a catholic apologist, do you believe it is possible to be keeping His commandments though having sinned during a day? Using your obfuscatory methodology, are you expecting us to be as clueless as you seem happy to be?

262 posted on 11/09/2015 1:33:32 PM PST by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 256 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter

I get the impression from some that it’s an icky subject to even talk about. What is sad is how Satan has perverted and cheapened something that was given to us as a blessing and a gift from our Creator intended to bring us into an intimacy with our spouse and a foundation of the family in a civilized society that mirrors the intimacy of Christ and His bride. We need to take it back and reclaim that relationship demonstrating to the fallen world that sex within marriage is the ONLY true context for this precious gift.


263 posted on 11/09/2015 2:00:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 248 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
After so many examples, we are seeing your postings as a means to obfuscate, but as yet we do not know whether you are obfuscating so your beliefs will not be exposed or if you obfuscate because in your mind you are our teacher, and thus you disdain entering into frank communication. I would ask if you actually comprehend the following which you have now posted more than once without any explanation:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Your cryptic posting method leaves us seeing you as unable to understand the complexity of the passage thus unable to explain it. As a catholic 'apologist' do you even believe someone can be 'in Him' in this life, without having trudged through catholic purgatory? As a catholic apologist, do you believe it is possible to be keeping His commandments though having sinned during a day? Using your obfuscatory methodology, are you expecting us to be as clueless as you seem happy to be?

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verses thirty nine to forty one
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

264 posted on 11/09/2015 2:59:26 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 262 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

“unable”

Confirmed.


265 posted on 11/09/2015 3:01:21 PM PST by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 264 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
The question remains you keep avoiding....

do you personally 100% of the time keep all of the commandments....and btw, as you're resorting to the OT, do you keep all of the Law perfectly?

It's a yes or no.

If you won't or can't it tells me your answer.

266 posted on 11/09/2015 4:10:21 PM PST by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 256 | View Replies]

To: Steelfish; Iscool

So priests don’t get a call from God to go into the priesthood?

That explains a lot.


267 posted on 11/09/2015 4:16:46 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter

Of course.

Didn’t you get the memo?

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.


268 posted on 11/09/2015 4:20:34 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter

Reading comments from Catholics, and having been raised Catholic, I’d have to say yes, that does appear to be what Catholics consider the ideal marriage.

A sexless marriage.

After all, sex for the fun of it has been described in some pretty vulgar terms by Catholics.


269 posted on 11/09/2015 4:24:10 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 248 | View Replies]

To: Rurudyne

You must have missed where Catholic posters claim that Jesus got His blood from Mary.


270 posted on 11/09/2015 4:26:40 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 255 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

Okay, so you are not able to be other than cryptic. we understand; ignorance is your bliss.


271 posted on 11/09/2015 4:29:02 PM PST by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 264 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone

A catholic isn’t yet born from above by their magicsteeringthem reckoning, so keeping the commandments is not only not possible, it is not going to get them out of the purgatory shuffle.


272 posted on 11/09/2015 4:30:39 PM PST by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 266 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

You do understand that the believer in Christ has passed out of judgment into life eternal as noted in John 3 and 5?


273 posted on 11/09/2015 5:13:50 PM PST by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 264 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone; MHGinTN; metmom; boatbums
It goes to illustrate we cannot, no matter how much we may try, be good enough to gain Heaven.

It's only through the blood of Christ we are saved. We cannot earn it.

Ealge guy, we are not discussing brain surgery here. I don't know why this concept is so difficult to understand. It REALLY IS pretty straight forward stuff.
As I am sure you know, I was once a works based religionist, out there trying to establish my own righteousness. It got really frustrating, when I realized I could not live a good enough life to earn my way to Heaven. Thank God I was more like a Berean. I wanted to know the truth.
If people want to try to gain entrance to Heaven based on their good works, I say good luck to them. They will need a ton of it.
End of brain surgery discussion.

:-)

274 posted on 11/09/2015 5:53:54 PM PST by Mark17 (Thank God I have Jesus, there's more wealth in my soul than acres of diamonds and mountains of gold)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 239 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
It does remind me of circular logic sometimes.

Only sometimes?

275 posted on 11/09/2015 5:55:11 PM PST by Mark17 (Thank God I have Jesus, there's more wealth in my soul than acres of diamonds and mountains of gold)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | View Replies]

To: Mark17

Dr. Carson would be proud of your “operation!”


276 posted on 11/09/2015 5:59:33 PM PST by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 274 | View Replies]

To: metmom
Didn't you get the memo?

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.

I lost my memo somewhere along the line.

:-)

277 posted on 11/09/2015 6:09:14 PM PST by Mark17 (Thank God I have Jesus, there's more wealth in my soul than acres of diamonds and mountains of gold)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 268 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
Dr. Carson would be proud of your "operation!"

Thank you sir. Dr Carson was known to have consulted with me before he performed brain surgery. He knows I wrote the book of instructions on it.

:-)

278 posted on 11/09/2015 6:15:23 PM PST by Mark17 (Thank God I have Jesus, there's more wealth in my soul than acres of diamonds and mountains of gold)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 276 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
The question remains you keep avoiding....
do you personally 100% of the time keep all of the commandments....and btw, as you're resorting to the OT, do you keep all of the Law perfectly?

It's a yes or no.

If you won't or can't it tells me your answer.

Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses one to nine,
Leviticus, Catholic chapter nineteen, Protestant verses thirteen to eighteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty two, Protestant verses thirty seven to forty,
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five, Protestant verses one to thirteen,
Revelation, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses fourteen to twenty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

279 posted on 11/09/2015 6:17:09 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 266 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
You do understand that the believer in Christ has passed out of judgment into life eternal as noted in John 3 and 5?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five, Protestant verses thirty one to forty six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

280 posted on 11/09/2015 6:22:39 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 273 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 241-260261-280281-300 ... 541-545 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson