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To: annalex; Mr Rogers; NYer; af_vet_1981; Salvation; boatbums
I believe the distinction being made here between "impurity" and "sin" is entirely artificial. Every resource I can find references either "purification," such as the CCC (1030), or "venial sin," or "temporal punishments" that were not received during life. The reason these expositors of the CCC refer to venial sin must be that it is a widely held belief among RCs. I assume you would tell me they are all, to a man, poorly catechized.

But I think the problem is different. I cannot find where the CC defines these impurities. When I am dealing with contracts, or business requirements for software projects, what happens when a term is vague is that people supply their own, sometimes contradictory meanings.  

So why has the term, in the CCC, been left vague?  My theory is that it is an umbrella for several kinds of "impurities," one of which most certainly could be venial sins. Witness here:
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.  

Available at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

So you should stop charging evangelicals with slander on this point, at least until you can get all your fellow RCs to get on the same page with you.  Certainly your view would be news to my own Catholic relatives. They would be shocked it had nothing to do with sin.  I suspect they might even be counting on it having everything to do with sin.  

But to be fair to you, there are other categories of "impurities." Unfinished temporal punishments seem to come up fairly often. What I found intriguing on the New Advent page cited above is that all the examples of temporal punishments happened to living people.  There are simply no authoritative examples of unfinished temporal punishments that are finished in the afterlife. That's the thing about temporal punishment. As a category, they only apply in the temporal domain.

Example 1: A murderer who escapes execution and dies of old age has still lost his temporal life.  The only difference was that God was his personal executioner, not the magistrate.

Example 2: The thief who stole and kept his stolen goods till he died. Besides being obviously unrepentant, when he dies, he loses possession of those goods. The time for temporal restitution has passed.

So including unfinished temporal punishment in the mix is flat out irrational.  It's a category error.

But what about "impurities" that are not venial sin? What are they? Words are easy.  Serious., working definitions are harder. What else can  such impurities be but a disguised form of sin?  Our sin IS our uncleanness. Our sin is what makes our hearts defective.  

And if your fellow RCs at New Advent and many other places are right, that these "impurities" include venial sin, then your case is lost entirely. We evangelicals would hold that there is no valid distinction between mortal and venial sin, that all of it must be accounted for under the blood of the Lamb of God, or else there's Hell to pay.

So Paul is right to use the past tense in describing our transition:
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:2-7)
No hint of waiting through years (or however long) of supernatural torture to finally emerge into Heaven.  In Paul's description here the immediacy is breathtaking. We are already there. Just like the country song.

So, in the complete absence of any Biblical teaching of purgation for some ill-defined list of impurities in an intermediate afterlife, I'm going to have to go with Paul on this. What Christ has done for us, not just what He did in some general way, but what He actually did for us on that cross, personally and individually, was so complete and the result so certain it could be spoken of in the past tense. It is finished, just as He said.

Peace,

SR

277 posted on 11/05/2015 10:26:36 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
So, in the complete absence of any Biblical teaching of purgation for some ill-defined list of impurities in an intermediate afterlife, I'm going to have to go with Paul on this.

You would think the Apostles would have left us a 'list' of some sort to figure out how long we would allegedly be in purgatory. Kicking your little brother-- 5 minutes in the furnace. Bounced check in the poor box---15 years. Etc.

280 posted on 11/05/2015 11:13:01 PM PST by redleghunter (Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation)
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To: Springfield Reformer
I cannot find where the CC defines these impurities.

RCs invoke Revelation 21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth" which would be mpurities, and we are told that we must "actually be perfect as the Father is perfect" "having the perfection of our heavenly Father," thus to have "impurities" means sinful fallen character. Which even a new baptized RC still has though RCs say such would go to be directly with God if they died right then, as do martyred believers.

Nothing unclean with enter the Heavenly City just as no unclean soul can have communion with God now, but it is by true faith in the Lord Jesus to save the damned and destitute sinner by His sinless shed blood that a believer already has direct access into the holy of holies (Heb. 10:19) and is accepted in Christ and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, (Eph. 1:6;2:6) and will be with Him at death or His return, (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17) which is what the entire church was told in the first century.

In addition, desperately trying to invoke 1Cor. 3 for purgatory is disallowed because as said, souls are saved despite of this loss, and which does not occur until the Lord's return! (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

So you should stop charging evangelicals with slander on this point,

Consider the sources of such and what they must to defend.

303 posted on 11/06/2015 6:14:08 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Springfield Reformer; Mr Rogers; NYer; af_vet_1981; Salvation; boatbums
why has the term, in the CCC, been left vague?

From the Catechism:

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness." 134

ARTICLE 8. SIN

We evangelicals would hold that there is no valid distinction between mortal and venial sin, that all of it must be accounted for under the blood of the Lamb of God, or else there's Hell to pay.

There is a distinction of all four: mortal sin not absolved, mortal sin absolved, venial sin absolved, venial sin not absolved. Purgatory cleanses the impurities left by the last four. The work of Christ on the Cross continues in purgatory.

When you see me barging on an evangelical thread about stuff you want to talk about, and posting disruptions from my Catholic point of view, then please tell me what you guys believe. At this point I am one telling you what Catholics believe, on the topic you chose to inquire about.

320 posted on 11/06/2015 8:08:44 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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