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To: Mr Rogers; af_vet_1981; annalex; Salvation; boatbums; Springfield Reformer
FWIW, and I fail to see how it is relevant, here is Mark 7:21-23:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

Every Christian I know believes that we will be "perfect" in heaven. No more sinful actions and no more sinful movements of the heart. And we’re right to believe so, Scripture teaches that “nothing unclean shall enter” the Heavenly Jerusalem (Rev.21:27). So if the vast majority of us have imperfect hearts/souls at the moment of death, and yet we will be perfect when fully united to God in heaven, a cleansing must take place! It’s implicit in the understanding of all Christians; the Catholic Church is simply drawing our attention to it.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

207 posted on 11/05/2015 4:16:33 AM PST by NYer (Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy them. Mt 6:19)
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To: NYer; Mr Rogers; af_vet_1981; annalex; Salvation; boatbums

No, purgatory does not explain 1 Cor 3 effectively at all. Paul explains it well enough himself. As Mr. Rogers has repeatedly pointed out, the imagery is of deeds, already done, in pursuit of building the churches on the foundation of Christ. These deeds are of various materials, with some being flammable, and some being inflammable.

The fire is not literal, agreed? It is a metaphor for something. But what? If we say it is a fire that burns out impurities and imperfections of the soul, why then does Paul focus all his attention on deeds rather than natures? It really makes no sense.

Far more sense can be made if the fire is a metaphor for divine scrutiny applied to deeds already done in this life, and in this context, not any and all deeds, but those that allege to be for building the churches up on the foundation of Jesus.

So for example, we have various ecclesiastical types that frequent FR, and they make comments and look to build up their “caucus,” etc. But they do so using fleshly reasoning and are not being led by the Spirit of God, but by a long history of factionalism. And I’m not saying who is who. That could apply to anybody. But the point is, it isn’t a work of God, or else it isn’t a work done according to the plain teaching of the word of God. It falls short of being inflammable, and when reviewed by God will be shown up as wood, hay or stubble. The focus is deeds, and reward toward a specific kind of work. Not purgation of as-yet un-atoned sin.

As for the point you make about our imperfections all being set aside when we enter the afterlife, the purgatory solution assumes there is a residue of sins not yet covered by the atonement when a person dies. It does no good to claim this residue is covered by the atonement during purgation. They are mutually exclusive ideas. Christ suffered once for the sin. It would be unjust of God to render that punishment a second time.

If you say the purgation is not a punishment, just an “attitude adjustment” during your “entrance exam,” there is no Scriptural basis for this view. Romans 7 gives a much better account of why we will be free of our sin nature in Heaven. It is our old man, as Paul calls it. In our spirits we are already free. The atonement has expunged all of our guilt. Period. That’s forensic, judicial, a sentence of life passed in our favor due to the death of Christ in our place.

But we carry with us the memories and the impulses bound into our flesh by a lifetime of sin. Like Paul says, what we want to do, we fail at, what we want to avoid, we fall into it anyway. The momentum of the sinful nature. But it is a dead man walking. When we die, it really does just go away. That’s what dying is to the believer, full release from the body of this death, then a waiting for the resurrection, a new body, divine scrutiny for our deeds in the flesh, the administration of rewards, and the enjoyment of the direct presence of our Savior forever. Absent from the body, and present with the Lord. No “green room.” It is never painted any other way for the individual New Covenant believer.

So no, Purgatory solves nothing. Instead it creates a nettlesome set of unsolvable problems regarding the nature and application of the atonement, which no advocate of Purgatory can resolve, as demonstrated by threads such as this.

Peace,

SR


209 posted on 11/05/2015 5:02:44 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: NYer
"He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant,

since there is no suffering ("fire") there.

There's no suffering in 1Cor. 3:15 either...It's the works that get burned up, not the Christian...Read the rest of the verses that clearly explain that...

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Ridiculous...

244 posted on 11/05/2015 5:29:58 PM PST by Iscool (Izlam and radical Izlam are different the same way a wolf and a wolf in sheeps clothing are differen)
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To: NYer; Mr Rogers; af_vet_1981; annalex; Salvation; boatbums; Springfield Reformer

Did you copy and paste that comment from somewhere else?

Where is the attribution?


345 posted on 11/06/2015 12:39:43 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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