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To: NYer; Mr Rogers; af_vet_1981; annalex; Salvation; boatbums

No, purgatory does not explain 1 Cor 3 effectively at all. Paul explains it well enough himself. As Mr. Rogers has repeatedly pointed out, the imagery is of deeds, already done, in pursuit of building the churches on the foundation of Christ. These deeds are of various materials, with some being flammable, and some being inflammable.

The fire is not literal, agreed? It is a metaphor for something. But what? If we say it is a fire that burns out impurities and imperfections of the soul, why then does Paul focus all his attention on deeds rather than natures? It really makes no sense.

Far more sense can be made if the fire is a metaphor for divine scrutiny applied to deeds already done in this life, and in this context, not any and all deeds, but those that allege to be for building the churches up on the foundation of Jesus.

So for example, we have various ecclesiastical types that frequent FR, and they make comments and look to build up their “caucus,” etc. But they do so using fleshly reasoning and are not being led by the Spirit of God, but by a long history of factionalism. And I’m not saying who is who. That could apply to anybody. But the point is, it isn’t a work of God, or else it isn’t a work done according to the plain teaching of the word of God. It falls short of being inflammable, and when reviewed by God will be shown up as wood, hay or stubble. The focus is deeds, and reward toward a specific kind of work. Not purgation of as-yet un-atoned sin.

As for the point you make about our imperfections all being set aside when we enter the afterlife, the purgatory solution assumes there is a residue of sins not yet covered by the atonement when a person dies. It does no good to claim this residue is covered by the atonement during purgation. They are mutually exclusive ideas. Christ suffered once for the sin. It would be unjust of God to render that punishment a second time.

If you say the purgation is not a punishment, just an “attitude adjustment” during your “entrance exam,” there is no Scriptural basis for this view. Romans 7 gives a much better account of why we will be free of our sin nature in Heaven. It is our old man, as Paul calls it. In our spirits we are already free. The atonement has expunged all of our guilt. Period. That’s forensic, judicial, a sentence of life passed in our favor due to the death of Christ in our place.

But we carry with us the memories and the impulses bound into our flesh by a lifetime of sin. Like Paul says, what we want to do, we fail at, what we want to avoid, we fall into it anyway. The momentum of the sinful nature. But it is a dead man walking. When we die, it really does just go away. That’s what dying is to the believer, full release from the body of this death, then a waiting for the resurrection, a new body, divine scrutiny for our deeds in the flesh, the administration of rewards, and the enjoyment of the direct presence of our Savior forever. Absent from the body, and present with the Lord. No “green room.” It is never painted any other way for the individual New Covenant believer.

So no, Purgatory solves nothing. Instead it creates a nettlesome set of unsolvable problems regarding the nature and application of the atonement, which no advocate of Purgatory can resolve, as demonstrated by threads such as this.

Peace,

SR


209 posted on 11/05/2015 5:02:44 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer; NYer; af_vet_1981; annalex; Salvation; boatbums

1 Cor 3 is easy to interpret. Paul does it for us. Some minister IAW God’s will, building up the church effectively. Some do not. God’s judgment will reveal which is which. Those who build well, following God’s will, are going to see a reward. Those who were Christians, but who succumbed to the temptation to build up their numbers by preaching what men WANT to hear, will find out they did nothing worthwhile to advance the kingdom of God. They will still be saved as individuals, but they enter heaven without any of the reward they were expecting.

And many pastors of small churches who labored in poverty will be rewarded, and many mega-church ‘worship leaders’ will enter heaven with a new humility.

The lesson is clear: “each man must be careful how he builds”. And for those of us who are not pastors, the lesson is also clear - many will build what looks impressive to man while doing nothing to advance the Kingdom of Heaven. We should seek pastors who labor the way God wants, relying on His power and preaching His word rather than tickling ears.

No one reading this passage with unbiased ears will conclude men are only partially cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, and need to suffer additional punishments to be able to enter heaven. That statement is utter heresy, contradicting the entire Bible. GOD has chosen who he will save - “whosoever believes”. And GOD has chosen what a man must do - “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..”. Or, in the words of Jesus Christ Himself when asked “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”:

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Those who repent and believe will be changed, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Romans 8). But there is no getting around it, thank God! It is GOD’S POWER, not ours - and God has not failed!

“And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.” - Col 2

“having forgiven us all our trespasses...nailing it to the cross.”

In the words of a hymn:

In the old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine
Such a wonderful beauty I see
For ‘twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died
To pardon and sanctify me.
So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down,
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it someday for a crown.


213 posted on 11/05/2015 6:44:47 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Can you remember what America was like in 2004?)
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To: Springfield Reformer; NYer; Mr Rogers; af_vet_1981; Salvation; boatbums
If we say it is a fire that burns out impurities and imperfections of the soul, why then does Paul focus all his attention on deeds rather than natures?

Because St. Paul, being thoroughly Catholic, believes that sin is a work rather than a nature. Start with a calvinist premise of "total depravity" and not only this passage but about 80% of the Gospel becomes a hopeless riddle.

not any and all deeds, but those that allege to be for building the churches

It sound like in your effort to erase this passage you want to reduce it to the works of carpenters and masons. The Epistle though speaks of the whole human being a God's building. Then the whole works of a man are purged when imperfect, not just some isolated case of it. Indeed St. Paul repeats "every man's work" many times.

the purgatory solution assumes there is a residue of sins not yet covered by the atonement when a person die

No, it doesn't. That is simply a slander that your repeat because then an argument can be built of alleged insufficiency of Christ's work on the Cross. The residue of sin is not sin; the sin was erased when the sin was confessed and absolved, entirely, through the merits of Christ salvific work. The residue, while not sin, represents an impurity of which the soul is purified. Through Whose merits is the impurity in Purgatory? Through Christ, entirely.

If you say the purgation is not a punishment

The Holy Scripture says it is akin to punishment; it is a "loss"; and conversely justification also involves punishment, e.g. penance, as appropriate.

he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved

When we die, it really does just go away

You can believe whatever you please, but I got a scripture in front of you and me that explains how.

215 posted on 11/05/2015 8:04:12 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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