Mary has tremendous influence over roman catholic church doctrine. There are four marian dogmas with a fifth on the horizon. Mary is considered mediatrix and co-redemmer. We have catholic writings that claim she answers prayers when Christ won't or prayers can get answered quicker if the catholic goes through her.
When you say Mary apparently has no influence over church doctrine I question your statement.
Apparition=Mary Mary=apparition
Are they different people?
If roman catholicism has placed so much reliance upon Mary and attribute to her all they have.....you best do what she says! To not do so would be to dishonor "her" as we've been told on these boards numerous times.
This brings us back to mary worship.
You can deny it all you want. But the statues, the prayers to mary, the writings about mary, etc, etc, say otherwise.
If Mary=apparition and apparition=Mary, the type of scapular, or anything else said by the apparition, is irrelevant. The message is coming from "mary" in either case be it Fatima, Guadalupe, Rue du Bac, La Salette, etc.
>>The Scapular is an external sign of the filial relationship established between the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother and Queen of Mount Carmel, and the faithful who entrust themselves totally to her protection...",
Herein is another lie. Christians do not entrust themselves totally to her protection.
Christians rely totally upon Christ for their protection, salvation, forgiveness, etc.
Paul notes this in Romans 8:31-35 (NASB)
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
I do too - as does every Catholic I have ever encountered. It’s just we know He has given us gifts to aid in our salvation: Himself, the Church, the sacraments, the saints, Sacred Scripture - all are for our salvation. I see no reason not to take advantage of those gifts.
What I see is catholics rely upon Jesus AND Mary for their salvation. Your statement confirms that.
I am a Christian and I rely on Christ - and He made His mother who she is for her benefit and mine.
If Mary is for your benefit you best get your brown or green scapular and do what she says!
Christians rely only upon Christ.
I notice you left out one very, very important person in your list of aids in our salvation.
He has given us the Holy Spirit as our Helper.
That is very telling.
I do buffet my body as did Paul....I get in the boxing ring.
“Mary has tremendous influence over roman catholic church doctrine.”
Actually, none. It is what Jesus did for her that is important.
“There are four marian dogmas with a fifth on the horizon. Mary is considered mediatrix and co-redemmer. We have catholic writings that claim she answers prayers when Christ won’t or prayers can get answered quicker if the catholic goes through her.”
Again, that is all about what JESUS DID FOR MARY. It shows no influence of Mary over doctrine at all.
“When you say Mary apparently has no influence over church doctrine I question your statement.”
Go ahead. As we’ve seen before someone can state the absolute truth here and an anti-Catholic will question it anyway.
“Are they different people?”
Mary is not different than Mary.
“If roman catholicism has placed so much reliance upon Mary and attribute to her all they have.....”
No. All “reliance” on Mary is reliance on a means established by Christ. Also, anything attributed to Mary by the Church is because of Christ.
“you best do what she says! To not do so would be to dishonor “her” as we’ve been told on these boards numerous times.”
And, again, anyone who says that doesn’t even understand what this is about.
“This brings us back to mary worship.”
Since there is no Mary worship among Catholics no one here can go back to it.
“You can deny it all you want. But the statues, the prayers to mary, the writings about mary, etc, etc, say otherwise.”
No, actually they don’t. Once again, as we’ve seen before someone can state the absolute truth here and an anti-Catholic will deny it anyway.
“If Mary=apparition and apparition=Mary, the type of scapular, or anything else said by the apparition, is irrelevant. The message is coming from “mary” in either case be it Fatima, Guadalupe, Rue du Bac, La Salette, etc.”
I’m sorry, but that just sounds like babbling. Are you actually trying to make a point?
“Herein is another lie. Christians do not entrust themselves totally to her protection.”
That wouldn’t be a lie anymore than hyperbole in the Bible is.
“Christians rely totally upon Christ for their protection, salvation, forgiveness, etc.”
Yep, and those who really love Jesus also know they can entrust themselves to Mary.
“Paul notes this in Romans 8:31-35 (NASB)”
And?
“What I see is catholics rely upon Jesus AND Mary for their salvation. Your statement confirms that.”
No, it doesn’t. My statement is absolutely clear: “It’s just we know He has given us gifts to aid in our salvation”. If Jesus is the one giving the gifts, then salvation is ultimately His to give. Mary works for Him. He made her who she is.
“If Mary is for your benefit you best get your brown or green scapular and do what she says!”
And, again, we see you apparently don’t understand, but attack anyway.
“Christians rely only upon Christ.”
And we do - and the gifts He gives us since they are His. Every time you open up your Bible or pray remind yourself that you just denied that you rely on them for anything.
“I notice you left out one very, very important person in your list of aids in our salvation.”
No. I didn’t leave Him out. He is not an aid. He IS salvation. That’s what His very name means. My gosh, don’t you know that?
“He has given us the Holy Spirit as our Helper.”
Yes, an Aid, a Comforter, a Consoler, the Paraclete.
“That is very telling.”
What is telling is that you apparently don’t know Jesus IS salvation.
“I do buffet my body as did Paul....I get in the boxing ring.”
Punch drunk?