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To: af_vet_1981; Mark17; redleghunter
You're trying to push things a bit too far, and I am supposing you want to find grounds that not only is my interpretive method not acceptable, but hence also neither am I as a truth-teller. I'm not going to let your methods take you or any other reader there.

====== The Summary ======

It is beyond supposition that when Jesus knocked down Saul and confirmed directly to Saul Who this Presence of Glory was, immediately Saul recognized that He was The Lord, called Him by title, clearly observed that He had been raised from the dead, and believed in Jesus as Messiah and Lord Jehovah so much as to immediately yield himself in obedience to Jesus, calling Him "Lord" and asking what he should do as a repentant totally committed brand-new believer, saved by faith alone in Jesus alone, and still seeking to serve Jehovah, but no longer in dark and religious blindness.

By these signs Saul had--according to Scripture--at that moment, his conscience pricked, acknowledged his sins of persecuting Christ through harming His followers, was forgiven, cleansed of sin-guilt by the blood of Christ, and from that moment did never turn back to the old life (unlike Peter who after his calling did time after time after time drop away from following Jesus, despite being rebuked).

In this passage of Acts 9, Jesus did not command Saul to be baptized. What Jesus did was to give the commandments to:

(1) get up;
(2) finish his journey; and
(3) wait until he was told (no messenger or method explained) what (no task mentioned) to do.

This Saul did, and after proceeding to his lodgings (with Judas, probably a fellow unsaved Pharisee), and in utter faith waited there without asking "How long?" and with great precision, did not do anything, refraining from any action outside The Lord's orders--not even eating nor drinking nor finding an emergency room, obeying to the minutest detail just as a slave alert for the next order from the Lord as to how to meet his needs for food or water.

For these three days (the Lord had not indicated how long), but long enough for him to know what the Lord knew about Saul, that he would sit and wait, continually praying, till the Lord issued futher instructions, waiting in anticipation even to death if need be, trusting (like the saved-by-faith-without-baptism sufferer (Job 12:15 and 23:12) that he probably was meditating on) that he was in the arms of Jesus.

As a trained Pharisee, there obviously was never a doubt that if he died while yet waiting, his grace-filled soul would be transported at least to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise through trusting in his salvation that he certainly now knew he possessed.

Even in his old life, Saul could not have been considering slaying the people of the Way, without knowing exactly what their doctrine was as compared to his false, tradition-poisoned doctrine obtained from the religious "scholars" of his day, and of the Christian tapologetic for the doctrine of salvation by faith apart from works of any kind.

But how glad he must have been when the Lord gave him a vision of someone coming to restore his sight, the act accomplished by the signs of laying his hand on Saul, a man called "Ananias." This Damascan disciple (all genuinely saved Christ-imitators are αγιοι, hagioi, saints) came, bearing the Word of prophecy, and announced what the Lord told him to tell Saul regarding the ministry that Saul would be embarking on. Here is what the Lord told Ananias about Saul:

"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake" (Acts 9:15b,c,d-16).

Note here that the Lord said "he is a chosen vessel ," not "he will be." The Holy Ghost is always very precise describing the event by Luke's report by eye-witnesses. The "is" here gives us every reason to assume that Paul has repented, been saved, and given a new assignment by God in view of that assent to do the Lord's bidding.

Furthermore, God has given Ananias only the instructions as to what he himself was to do: go, find Saul, and place your hand upon Saul for restoring his sight). Going on, God limited the information that Ananias might prophetically announce concerning Saul's office and occupation: that he was a chosen instrument, this making him a Disciple-Apostle (unlike Matthias, who was not chosen by the Lord, in the forty days after His resurrection while He was walking with them, Acts 1:26), to carry His reputation to all cultural tribes (παντα τα εθνη, Mt. 28:19, both Jews and Gentiles, Rom. 1:15-16). And that is it. The Lord did not Ananias any further instruction for Ananias to tell Saul to get up and get baptized.

However, we know, as Ananias did, that the general overall parting instruction of the Risen Messiah Jesus was that His disciples were, as they were journeying, to make more disciples from all the tribes tey would meet (the fruit of a disciple is more disciples, Jn. 15:5, 16), and to baptize these recruited learners, and only these learners when they became qualified by their considered profession of loyalty to Jesus.

Therefore, under that general condition of following whatsoever Jesus had commanded, Ananias implicitly knew that this new repentant, faithful, redeemed, obedient, selected disciple-apostle ought to be urged to immediately and publicly exhibit and confirm his new eternal commitment to Christ by baptism; the mode showing that he had been ritually "cleansed" of sins by immersion in living water in the name and by the authority of the Elohim, the Godhead, as by the same method that all observant Jews to this day execute, even now being ritually purified in the mikvah.

So in restoring Saul's sight and delivering God's information, Ananias was performing a prophet's duties, the words being inspired: "Thus saith the Lord." But in offering the general counsel that all baptized believers would give to the new Spirit-regenerated believer-disciple, that person ought to demonstate the rite of induction into the Company of The Committed by the rite of public oral statement belief (the old Roman symbol of The Faith (click here)), followed by the immersion as described in Romans 6:3-4), Ananias was performing the disciple-teacher's duties.

As you can see, this baptism is completely outside the way we ought to treat infants, and its correct nbderstanding directs us as to the way we should discipleize children as they grow into personal accountability, into The Faith. Neither babies nor Saul are saved by applying what was intended to be the induction rite for believing disciples.

It further shows that the passage Acts 22:13-16 identifies Saul as a redeemed soul counted as a Christian brother by Ananias in his accurate acceptance of the Lord's proclamation of a servant chosen by Him, but his greeting is in uninspired words, just ordinary conversation, as he prepared Saul to receive the spiritual blessing by the act of laying on of the prophet's hands, through which Saul's sight was restored.

Going on to verses 14 and 15, we there see the exercise of the prophetic duty to announce to Saul what God desired of him--an extraordinary function.

Then in verse 16 Ananias reverts to the ordinary form of communication, using entirely justified urging but in uninspired words, for Saul to get right up and get baptized, and announce his new status with the Lord by public profession by testimony and submitting to the commonly accepted and usual ritual of disciples' (water) baptism in his first act of obedience to following the Lord's command as His bondslave.

======= The Conclusions ======

Now, none of this demeans, denigrates, nor impeaches The Lord, The Holy Spirit, Luke, Ananias, Paul, or the Scripture. If there is any impeachment, it is toward the complete dullness in your decoding of the Scripture's meaning and in describing the plan of salvation, as well as in applying the rules of logic and discernment to this saga.

What you have done is to camp on the verse Acts 22:16, with your interpretation assuming that it means that Sauls sins were not forgiven until during/after being immersed, being closed-minded as to its validity, and not comparing the rest of Scripture with that verse to discern what exactly was meant by Ananias. Then you take this proposition, go back to Saul arising from his epiphany and going on to Damascus, and apparently in your scenario, unforgiven whether or not abased, confessed, repentant, and/or believing. Then you take us on to Acts 22, tell us, "See! Ha! Saul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away and thus get his sins washed, and thus saved!"

This is simply circular reasoning, leading to erroneous imaginations and a false gospel.

My FRiend, it won't wash, and I will not accept the gospel you subscribe to, nor recommend it to anyone else.

282 posted on 10/10/2015 2:40:40 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1; aMorePerfectUnion; metmom; Kandy Atz

You know what guys? Quite frankly, I could care less what anyone thinks about baptism. I want to know what is their plan of salvation. I want to know how they plan to get past the prying eye of God, and into Heaven. After all, that is most important thing in all of creation. What good does it do someone, if they have an issue or two right, here and there, and still end up in eternal fire, where the smoke of their torment goes up forever? (Rev 14:11)


283 posted on 10/10/2015 3:28:42 AM PDT by Mark17 (Heaven, where the only thing there that's been made by man are the scars in the hands of Jesus)
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To: imardmd1
You're trying to push things a bit too far, and I am supposing you want to find grounds that not only is my interpretive method not acceptable, but hence also neither am I as a truth-teller.

You have denied that the words recorded in scripture from the mouth of Ananias are inspired, even though the LORD Jesus appeared to Ananias, appeared to Saul, told them both what to do, which was recorded in Acts under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit without error, doubt, rebuke, or disapproval of anything that Ananias is recorded as saying. Therefore you do err.

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verses three to eighteen,
Acts, Catholic chapter twenty two, Protestant verses six to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James,
bold emphasis and color selection mine

285 posted on 10/10/2015 6:17:26 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: imardmd1

What a lot of words trying to make Acts 22:16 mean something else than what it says......namely Paul needed to be baptized to have his sins forgiven. Welcome to the Christian Faith taught and believed for 2,000 years.


292 posted on 10/10/2015 8:22:45 AM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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