Rivkah Would not Bow to Francis : How does Francis Respond?

Another one who completely misses the forest for the trees.

I don't think so. Do you have a problem with the Jews ?

Actually I made it pretty clear that my issue was with Francis not with the Jews. What’s your issue?

Actually I made it pretty clear that my issue was with Francis not with the Jews. What’s your issue?

Jew bashing
Calling the Pope a vulgar name because he did a work of mercy

1.Jew bashing 2.Calling the Pope a vulgar name because he did a work of mercy

So where am I guilty of either of these things?

What was your response to post 5 ?
What was your post 8 ?

Both posts was an issue with Francis hiding the crucifix. It happened to happen in front of a Jew but I would have been equally upset if he hid it from any other non-Catholic. He just seems to have a habit of doing so before Jews (and I get that this is because the sight of the cross offends them specifically).

As for my comment about the “false Christ-denying religion”? That is a traditional description of the Jewish religion. It is speaking the truth about the Jewish religion post-Christ. It is not “bashing Jews” unless of course you hold the belief that the Catholic Church has been bashing Jews until Vatican II..which I’m guessing you do.

And I’m still wondering where I used a “vulgar” description of Francis......

My uncle is a most high reverend in the Episcopal church.

Decades ago he was granted an audience with JP2.

He kissed his ring. He should have known better.

When I asked if that was appropriate since he is not an RC, his response was “But it’s the Pope man! The Pope!” as if star power trumped all.

And I’m still wondering where I used a “vulgar” description of Francis......

Did I write you used a vulgar description of Pope Francis ? No.

You started this thread and in post 5 Silverleaf insulted a pious Jewess and called the Pope a vulgar name. You responded to that post, not to rebuke or correct (as should have been done), but bashed the Jews and Pope Francis, who, bless his soul, showed kindness to this daughter of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As for my comment about the “false Christ-denying religion”? That is a traditional description of the Jewish religion. It is speaking the truth about the Jewish religion post-Christ. It is not “bashing Jews” unless of course you hold the belief that the Catholic Church has been bashing Jews until Vatican II..which I’m guessing you do.

Christ is an English derivation from a Greek word that points to a Hebrew word with an English equivalent, Messiah. Judaism looks forward to the Messiah. The prayers which do this are particularly and poignantly beautiful. In general, our elder brethren do not (yet) share our faith and understanding that Jesus is the Messiah. We are commanded by the Messiah to love them. We await Slandering Jews, like Rivka, is a violation against the commandment. To do so on the eve of a high holy day, Rosh HaShana, is particularly egregious.

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

I see you quote the “new” catechism/Vatican II. No surprise there. Yes we are to love them. In the mean time we speak the truth and the truth is they deny Christ and therefore their religion is false just like every other non-Catholic religion.

Given my family is Jewish I don’t need you to tell me what I should or should not do.

I see you quote the “new” catechism/Vatican II. No surprise there. Yes we are to love them. In the mean time we speak the truth and the truth is they deny Christ and therefore their religion is false just like every other non-Catholic religion.

Christ is the Greek derived word, while Messiah is the Hebrew derived word. One should expect Judaism to use the Hebrew derived word instead of the Greek. Judaism affirms Messiah and does not (yet) recognize that Jesus is the Messiah, nor the other teachings of the one holy catholic apostolic church, but perhaps you don't (yet) accept them all either.

Judaism's Principle of the Faith concerning Messiah:

I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and, though he tarry, I will wait daily for his coming.

Catholic Teaching, Nostra Aetate:

As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

Catholics must accept Vatican II, including on Judaism, cardinal says

The Catholic Church's relationship to Judaism as taught by the Second Vatican Council and the interpretations and developments of that teaching by subsequent popes, "are binding on a Catholic," said the Vatican official responsible for relations with the Jews.

Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, spoke to reporters May 16 after delivering a speech on Catholic-Jewish relations in light of Vatican II's declaration "Nostra Aetate" on the church's relations with non-Christian religions.

The afternoon speech followed Cardinal Koch's participation in a meeting of the doctrinal congregation to examine the latest progress in the Vatican's reconciliation talks with the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X.

"There are questions to clarify in discussions with this community. I can't say more than that," he told reporters, echoing a Vatican statement saying the reconciliation talks are ongoing.

In addition to the highly publicized position of Bishop Richard Williamson, an SSPX bishop who denies the Holocaust, public statements by the society's superior general, Bishop Bernard Fellay, leave in doubt whether the society as a whole accepts the entirety of "Nostra Aetate," including its condemnations of anti-Semitism and of the idea that the Jews were to blame for the death of Jesus.

"All the doctrinal decisions of the church are binding on a Catholic, including the Second Vatican Council and all its texts," Cardinal Koch said when asked if the SSPX would be expected to accept all the teachings of Vatican II. "The 'Nostra Aetate' declaration of the Second Vatican Council is a clear decree and is important for every Catholic," he added.

At the same time, Cardinal Koch said, "it is very necessary to make clear the difference between the position of the Society of St. Pius X and the negation of the Shoah (the Holocaust), which is a position that has no place in the Catholic Church. It is very clear."

Given my family is Jewish I don’t need you to tell me what I should or should not do.

Do you demonstrate actual love to your Jewish family in a manner that they agree is love ? Would Rivka recognize love on this thread where she was personally insulted ?

True Catholics recognize that post Vatican II teaching regarding the Jews has changed from pre-Vatican II Truth. And pre-Vatican II Truth clearly taught that the Jewish religion is false. You keep accusing me of not showing love (”to Rivkah”) by my statement that the religion is false. Apparently you also believe that the pre-Vatican II church also did not show love.

Good thing the Catholic Church is now a loving church. /s

I think you and I are done. You seem to be obsessed with anything Jewish. You might try being obsessed with all things truly Catholic. That is, if you are Catholic.

A fist bump would have been more appropriate. Clasping his hands together and saying, “Welcome” would have worked too.

You seem to be obsessed with anything Jewish.

My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Luke, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses forty six to fifty five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James