Posted on 08/30/2015 10:04:00 AM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
“Who do men say I am?” Jesus posed the question to his disciples as they went out to the towns of Caesarea Philippi. John the Baptist, Elijah or other of the prophets, they answered.
“But who do you say that I am?” Jesus asked them. And while 11 of the 12 disciples were uncertain, Peter responded, “You are the Christ.”
This account, taken from the Gospel According to Mark, appears in slightly different form in Matthew and Luke, the other two synoptic gospels. What is noteworthy is that in none of the accounts does Jesus say He is other than the Son of God.
He does not say He is, at once, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
It is because of that ambiguity that in 325 AD the Roman emperor Constantine the Great – who reputedly converted to Christianity 13 years earlier – summoned some 300 bishops of the post-Apostolic church – including Philocalus of Caesarea Philippi – to the lakeside city of Nicaea to decide who the church believed Jesus to be.
And 1,690 years ago this past week, the so-called First Council of Nicaea concluded two months of ecumenical debate with the decision that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same.
That bestowed the church’s official imprimatur upon the disputed doctrine of trinitarianism, leaving a mark on Christendom that endures to this very day.
Indeed, those who refused to accept the conclusions at Nicaea were condemned as heretics – like Arius, the Alexandrian presbyter who accepted the divinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but who challenged the idea of a triune “godhead” made up of three coequal, coeternal supreme beings.
Arius believed God the Alpha and the Omega; the beginning and the ending; the One Who was, Who is, and is to come; the Almighty.
He believed Jesus to be, “the first born of all creation,” the “only begotten Son of God.” He held that Jesus and God were of like essence, but not the same essence. He also taught that Jesus was perfect and unchanging; that He was in all things subject and obedient to the Father; that He was sent to earth to take away the sin of the world.
As to the Holy Spirit, Arius did not think it an actual being, but the illuminating and sanctifying power of God, which was indeed divine, but unequal to either the Father or the Son.
In today’s Christian church, be it Roman Catholic or Protestant, those who bend towards the Arian view, who question the “mystery” of the Trinity – that “the Lord is one,” yet He manifests Himself as three distinct beings – are perceived as having theological views that border on the blasphemous.
But the Trinitarian doctrine is extremely problematic. It requires those who read the Word of God to convince themselves that it doesn’t really mean what it plainly says with respect to the relationship between God and the Son of God.
Indeed, if Jesus is God, and God Jesus, as most Christian churches espouse today, why did Jesus say, in the Gospel According to John, “I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.”?
Why did Jesus advise his disciples, in the Gospel According to Mark, all would one day see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, but that of that day and hour no one knows, “not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father.”
Then there’s the passion of Christ, from the Garden of Gethsemane to the cross at Golgotha.
As the Lord prayed in the garden, He cried out, according to Mark’s gospel, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”
Then on the cross, the Gospel of Matthew tells us that, about the ninth hour Jesus cried out, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
If Jesus and God were one and the same being, then the Lord need not have asked the Father to spare Him the ordeal that awaited. He could have decided so Himself. And he needn’t have asked God why He had forsaken Him. Because He would have been asking Himself why He had forsaken Himself.
Because the Trinitarian doctrine has been accepted wisdom in Christendom since the First Council of Nicaea nearly 1,700 years ago, we accept it today as gospel truth. But it is abundantly clear, not from church traditions, but from the words of Christ Himself, that the doctrine is wrong.
**That is explained in the Athanasian Creed.**
A brief example of the confusion trinitarian ‘creeds’ display is shown in the following numbered lines from a posting of the so-called ‘Athanasian Creed’:
**10. The Father is eternal: the Son eternal: the Holy Spirit eternal.
22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made; nor created; but begotten.**
Eternal=begotten??
The following statement is contradictory to the verse which follows it.
**25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another.**
“..I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
And this:
**12. As also there are not three uncreated: nor three immeasurable: but one uncreated, and one immeasurable.**
??
So there are TWO that ARE created, and TWO that ARE measurable??
More confusion:
**13. So likewise the Father is almighty: the Son almighty: and the Holy Spirit almighty.**
If one is almighty, there is no need for the others. If one needs the others, that one is not almighty.
And these next ones......????
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.
????
Now who is it that is the author of confusion?
How does a ‘trinitarian’ explain this: “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons of God’ don’t know??)?
Did the Son of God inherit his name ‘Jesus’? Yes. Jn 5:43 and Heb. 1:4
Why is the phrase ‘Son of God’ found many times in scripture, but the phrase ‘God the Son’ is found nowhere in scripture?
Here’s a list of words and references, showing who was the original provider of knowledge (and all other things divine as well):
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4
doctrine: 7:16,17: “My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.”
That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.
BUT......here is a question for you: With your separate and distinct persons of God theology; can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?
When you place the Father (Spirit) in the Son (divinely created flesh, with a soul), you have defined Jesus Christ in the simplest of terms.
**I’m sorry, but what about Jesus’ command to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost do these folks not understand?**
The scriptures show that Peter, Philip, and Paul, all baptized in the name of Jesus, in following the Lord’s command found in Matt. 28:19.
Seems like a disagreement over very, very little
First of all, it was AS a dove. The Spirit descended like a dove. Not like a lightening bolt.
(corrected typo in the first sentence)
If you need a name that will be on the sign-board in front of the building, that would include the United Pentecostal Church.
Could be others but I am not familiar with them.
**I have family who are UPC. After reading up on it, explains a lot.**
I have family that are trinitarians. They have devolved along with the mainstream protestant churches they belong to. Some of them accept gay lifestyle/marriage, abortion on demand, and other ungodly things.
What I have gleaned from some conversations with them, and some from people who have left the UPC church, some of them perhaps try to arrange marriages and they start fairly young with the girls? I also have a friend who is AOG who seems in an awful hurry to push her girls into finding a husband at a young age, like at around 14. Has anyone else seen this?
I ask not in a mocking way. I know this appears more common in the UPC church but wonder if it’s similar in the AOG or if it’s just my friend.
**That Jesus is God is fully established in scripture, so if Jesus is God and also a separate person, then what option is there other than the Trinity?**
Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God, not God the image. Jesus Christ and the apostles/writers of the NT NEVER used the phrase, “God the Son”.
The Father is not an image, but a Spirit (Jn 4:23,24).
In Jn 12:44-50, Jesus does a wonderful job of explaining things. Also 14:11.
Can only state that I didn’t specifically notice such a trend while attending an AOG.
Oh...
Like T. D. Jakes, a modalist like you?
And yet the scripture gives the Father, Son and Holy Spirit distinct duties and roles in man's salvation. Furthermore, the three speak to each other. It makes no sense to create a division of "The Father, Son and Holy Spirit" if it wasn't real.
Christ is here speaking of Himself as the Messiah-sent. In this capacity, as perfect man and mediator, He is lesser than the Father. In His divine self, however, Christ is almighty:
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Eternal=begotten??
Eternally begotten, always proceeding from the Father. Christ is the Word of God and His Wisdom. The Father could never exist without the Son. There was never a time they were ever a part. Hence in "the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is the same God, but a separate person from the Father.
So there are TWO that ARE created, and TWO that ARE measurable??
It doesn't say that. That part only explains that the Holy Spirit and Christ are uncreated. Christ made all things. He was never Himself made.
Now who is it that is the author of confusion?
You simply don't understand Trinitarian theology. There is nothing wrong with the text.
How does a ‘trinitarian’ explain this: “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons of God’ don’t know??)?
Of Christ's human nature, which was said to "grow in knowledge." But in His divine nature, He is omniscient.
That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.
Which would mean that Christ is not God, but a created being. But Christ is clearly God "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", "Before Abraham was, I am," "Unto the Son [God] saith, thy throne, O God, is forever and ever," therefore you are in error.
Christ is indeed the image of God, but in Him rests the fullness of the "Godhead bodily." He is not a mask. He is not a picture. He is not a reflection. He is the image of God, and is thus a part of God Himself. But not merely a part either, but fully God, and second person in the Trinity.
This would contradict your claim then, because in your view Jesus is a created individual. Yet to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is summed up in that verse in Acts by the name of Jesus. In other words, the Apostles had no problem with equalizing the Son with the Father and Holy Spirit.
That said, those verses do not teach that Christians did not baptize in all three names. Christ name is merely given prominence, but without the exclusion of the other, because the Jews had worked so hard to reject Him. The Christian church in History always baptized in all three names. For example, from the Didache, which dates from the late 1st century to early 2nd:
"Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."(The Didache, Ch. 7)
One God the Father, of all, who is above all, through all, and in you all.
When the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Which is how monotheist Jews like Paul saw the Father and the Son - which is obviously not the church fathers view, coming along some three-four hundred years after the apostles, by which time much Greek philosophic thought having shaped their thinking.
Note, the Trinitarian terminology of the creed makers is not there: “For there is one God in three coequal and coeternal persons.” Rather, the Father is the one God, the Son is the historical figure, born of a woman, stepping into history as a man, the man Christ Jesus.
Obviously, to Paul, the personal essence of the divine Being can only be ONE divine Person. The one divine Being God the Father incarnated Himself in human flesh.
Oneness Pentecostals believe that God eternally exists as God the Father, who is eternal, omnipresent, and invisible Spirit, John 4:24, incarnating Himself as the man Christ Jesus to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:18/Luke 1:35 /Hebrews 1:1-3).
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…
Just one God here, the Father, revealing himself in the one mediator. Hence, no one will see three separate and distinct divine people, they will only see His express image. The invisible God made visible, Jesus Christ.
2 things. First, trying to understand the Trinity with the human mind is impossible. Second, always use original language when you find a difficult scripture passage.
John 3:16 doesn't use the word "begotten", it uses the Greek work "monogenes", which has 2 primary definitions. The definition that's important here defines begotten as "the only one of its kind within a specific relationship".
Hebrews 11:17 (KJV) describes Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son". Does this prove that the Bible is false?
The Athanasian creed correctly states that Jesus was not created. You can not use the word begotten to prove that Jesus is not eternal.
Twisting other scriptural verses does not change God's truth.
Which Judaism do you have in mind. Demonstrate that you know whereof you speak.
The unity of the Godhead is not inconsistent with there being 3 persons. Both truths are equally taught in scripture.
You quote: "When the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman."
If you interpret this to mean that Christ was created at the moment of conception, you contradict the scripture which teaches His preexistence with the Father and eternal Godhead:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and nothing was made that was made without Him." (John 1:1-3)
Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
IOW, this demonstrates the shallowness of the "Oneness" Pentecostals in their reading of scripture. If they argue that Christ is a created being, they are refuted here. If they argue that Christ is merely a mode or a role played by the Father, they contradict Christ's eternal presence by the side of the Father.
Which is how monotheist Jews like Paul saw the Father and the Son
All Christisn are monotheist, including Paul.
which is obviously not the church fathers view, coming along some three-four hundred years after the apostles,
False:
Ignatius, who lived in the time of John the Apostle, who lived from the first century and died either at the edge of its end, or very early in the 2nd century:
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever," (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts," (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7).
He calls Christ God and places Him in a Trinity of persons, the Father and Holy Spirit.
From the second century:
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies X.l)
Note that he speaks of three persons, and easily applies the title of God to Christ.
Tertullian, from the late 2nd to early 3rd century:
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit," (Adv. Prax. 23, PL 2.156-7).
And Origin, deeper into the 3rd century:
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father," (De Princ. 1.2., PG 11.132).
The Council of Nicea was around or a little more than a hundred years after this last quote.
Note, the Trinitarian terminology of the creed makers is not there: “For there is one God in three coequal and coeternal persons.” Rather, the Father is the one God, the Son is the historical figure, born of a woman, stepping into history as a man, the man Christ Jesus.
Is that how you interpret that sentence? It says that there are three persons, and these three persons are the same God. Therefore Christ is not a "mode" of the Father. He is eternal, never ceases, and is always by the side with the Father while possessing the same eternal substance.
I John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
Genesis 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Who is God talking to?
The Bible makes it clear that Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus were present and involved in at creation.
Genesis 1:1-2 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Colossians 1:13-17 “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
If you don’t know who Jesus Christ is, then you don’t know the Gospel, nor have faith in Him and what He provided on the Cross.
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