Posted on 08/23/2015 8:07:24 PM PDT by markomalley
Filmmaker, evangelist and renowned bible prophecy teacher Joel Richardson says it is a time of change for the church, especially when it comes to teachings about the End Times and the rapture. The author of the New York Times bestseller “The Islamic Antichrist” recently appeared with Joe Schimmel on Rick Wiles’s TruNews radio program to discuss the what he believes is the false doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.
Wiles himself supports the post-tribulation position, stating, “I personally do not believe that by the year 2020, any credible person will be teaching the secret pre-trib rapture doctrine. I think the events that are coming in the next five years will utterly destroy the doctrine.”
The pre-tribulation school of thought has been an important force in American Christianity for decades, with proponents such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice. This school holds believers will be raptured before the great tribulation during the End Times, thus avoiding it. In contrast, Richardson believes the rapture will not occur until during the tribulation period. Thus, believing Christians will not be spared the persecution and calamities of the End Times.
Richardson is featured on a DVD exploring the issue entitled “Left Behind or Led Astray?” During the film, Richardson explains what he sees as the crucial importance of the issue.
“It’s one of the premiere pastoral issues of our day. If you’re a pastor that’s not preparing your people to face potentially the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation, in this hour, simply because your denomination teaches it or whatever, personally I think you’re failing in your role as a shepherd and a pastor.”
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
Do you know of a really intelligent, Ravi Zacharia type not tin foil off the wall type, of Old Testament scholar who has written about the Messiah from Israel’s point of view? I know the prophecies of the Old Testament coincide with the New but I don’t know enough about them.
That is EXACTLY the distinction that some here are failing to make.
We are not guaranteed to be delivered from tribulation, but from THE Tribulation.
We will experience tribulation, persecution, and hardships here on earth because of our testimony for Christ, but not God's judgment on the unbelieving, Christ rejecting world, which is THE Tribulation.
You didn’t ask me, but I have gotten much from Dr. O. Palmer Robertson’s books “The Christ of the Covenants” and “The Christ of the Prophets.” Dr. Stanley Porter’s “The Messiah in the Old and New Testaments” might also be helpful. Another one to consider is Dr. Walter Kaiser’s “The Messiah in the Old Testament.”
If you like the old guys, B.B. Warfield wrote “The Divine Messiah in the Old Testament.”
I Don’t deal with denominations; that is where the institutional error comes from. I lived with that confusion for a long enough time.
I just stick with other Whole Bible believers that don’t try to divide God’s word into bite sized chunks.
I have to agree with you. And that tactic is working spectacularly amongst my family. When I ask why they aren’t taking a stand on this or that or even doing something simple like installing their own water wells in case something happens the inevitable response is ‘I’ll never have to worry about that, I’ll be raptured. If you don’t believe we’ll be raptured before things get bad you’re not really a believer’ and so forth.
I stopped trying to rationalize with them.
I think it’s a defense to avoid dealing with the world.
Once you grasp that the appointed times were given for our education, understanding, and ultimately our protection from Satan's final wrath, all of the scriptures begin to fit together.
No more trying to “Rightly divide” the word of God from itself, rather than the false doctrines, of which Paul was warning Timothy.
Bible study becomes a pleasure when that kind of confusion is lifted.
Great, thanks!
sweet, thanks!
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>> “I think it’s a defense to avoid dealing with the world.” <<
Or to avoid dealing with God on his terms?
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Perhaps.
It’s frustrating though. Some of them totally fail to prepare even for the eventualities. Ice storms, hurricanes, other things that happen down here with some regularity. Then they are the very ones suffering and complaining because the muni water isn’t potable and ‘boil water’ is a joke if there’s no electricity either.
Chapter 6 talks about the first 6 seals, chapter 7 begins with an interlude and a declaration not to hurt the earth and trees and seas UNTIL the bond servants are sealed. THEN the 144,000 JEWS are mentioned.
Immediately after that John writes After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
This great multitude that no one could count, would be how John would describe 10's or 100's of Millions. Jerusalem at the time was only about 40,000 people, which might have surged to 250,000 during festivals. All of Israel maybe 3 million. John would have never seen millions of people at one time.
Also, the fact that John just verses earlier mentions 144,000 (a large number) but then says a multitude no one could count, signifies a crowd much, MUCH larger than 144,000. So yeah, 10's or 100's of millions.
This HUUUUGE multitude is ALREADY before the thrown of God, worshiping him, when the 144,000 are sealed.
THEN John continues with 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.”
And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple
I find it interesting that one of the elders questioned John as to who these people were and then told him who they were, to make sure John understood their importance.
THENafter this Rev 8 continues with the 7th seal.
Chapter 9 is the 5th trumpet and the bottomless pit being opened and the locusts tormenting man.
BUT 2 chapters earlier and in chronological order of events given, John already said that the multitude no one could count, that came out of the great tribulation, were in heaven around the throne, worshiping God.
Chapter 11 brings on the scene the 2 witnesses and they are on the scene for 1260 days. After this the 2 witnesses are killed, they rise 3-1/2 days later and ascend into heaven.
Its at this point the Bible says
The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
Signifying that we are still following a chronological time line.
Chapter 11 finishes with the seventh trumpet
Now, chapter 12 tells of Israel fleeing Satan into her place prepared in the wilderness.
Chapter 13 talks of the Beast (antichrist) who is given power by the dragon (satan)
Rev 13: 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
So...Revelation gives us a chronological order. In it it tells of all the seals and bowls and woes and says that the great multitude are in heaven, before the thrown, praising God, WHILE Gods wrath pours out on the earth. It is after this that the 2 witnesses come on the scene for 3-1/2 years.
So...here is the deal. Revelation tells of 1260 days for the 2 witnesses. It talks of 1260 days for the beast.
Either, the 2 witnesses are on the scene for 1260 days AND THEN the beast for 1260 days, or the time frames are at the same time. Either way, John says that sometime before Gods wrath is finished, the multitude taken from great tribulation is before the throne, worshiping.
“Because the concept of dispensationalism/rapture/tribulation period/ daniels 70th week had its origins with Darby and Margaret MacDonald in the 1830’s.”
FALSE.
Do your homework.....
I’ve read quite a bit of Darby.
Where do you see that he was into “codes”?
http://stempublishing.com/authors/darby/
William Butler Yeats
The Second Coming:
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
P.S. For the record, I’m a pre-wrath rapture believer, but the idiotic stories (which you repeated) about Darby are utter nonsense.
Indefensible.
Poppycock.
Then who is that you look to for teaching? What creeds of the Church if any do you adhere to? Are you closer to the great Reformers like Luther and Calvin? Or one of the newer non-denominational groups?
“I just stick with other Whole Bible believers that don’t try to divide God’s word into bite sized chunks.”
Well since every theologian who writes a systematic theology has the same goal that’s not unusual.
I will challenge that - The most avid group of preppers tend to be Pre-Trib Christians. It is among the prophecy aware churches that the pulpits are aflame with the news of perilous times coming. It is among these same churches that the judgement upon America is being preached... These folks know what's coming (however imperfectly) and are wide awake.
Whether their interpretations are accurate is beside the point - It won't be these folks that will get a 'nasty surprise'- That will be the fare of those who pay no attention to Spirit and Prophecy.
As a mid-trib (rather, pre-wrath) advocate, I have differences with my pre-trib brethren, but I would not consider them to be unprepared as a whole. Rather, that they are the ones who will be the most prepared to ride out the coming storm... Any storm. And if they are right, or I am right, it is all a matter of increment - We both know that we will be at that great wedding feast on the sea of glass as the worst of the cataclysm is carried out on the earth far below. We are both preparing for what is to come, and have every intention to be ready to endure until that day.
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>> “THEN the 144,000 JEWS are mentioned.” <<
no!
now I see where your confusion is coming from.
The House of Israel are not “Jews!”
The House of Judah are the Jews.
The “lost sheep of the House of Israel” are the core of Yeshua’s Assembly (Ekklesia)which also includes such other believers as sojourn with them.
We are presently at the end of the 5th seal, so the time is soon to come.
The “Great Multitude” with the white robes are “the lost sheep of the House of Israel, and those believers of other nations that sojourn with them.
>> “This HUUUUGE multitude is ALREADY before the thrown of God, worshiping him, when the 144,000 are sealed.” <<
Sorry, no, that is nonsense. There is one resurrection unto eternal life, and it cannot happen until Satan’s tribulation has ended. There is no multitude in Heaven, and there will not be until his entire elect are resurrected to the wedding feast.
You have to understand that most of the Revelation that John saw was future. Also the interlaced parentheticals in the chronology have to be understood. Events on Earth are never mixed with events in heaven. First one is told, then the simultaneous events in the other are told. This parenthetical pattern carries through the entire Revelation.
God’s Tabernacle is on Earth until the end of the trib.
That dispensational poison will take you down the path of confusion, in an attempt to deny you your salvation at the Last Trump.
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>> “Then who is that you look to for teaching?” <<
The undiluted word of God.
>> “ What creeds of the Church if any do you adhere to?” <<
Creeds are of men, not of God. They are an attempt to alter the truth of God’s word in subtle ways.
Theologians and theology are what Paul cautioned against when he told us to reject philosophy.
It is notable that theologians are not among the helpers that Paul listed as being sent from God.
Theologians wouldn’t have to write much if what they taught was direct from the word. The motivation to write a thesis is to alter somehow the presented truths in the word.
PhD = Doctor of Philosophy.
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No, the Tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble - Define that, and you will know the time of Tribulation. YHWH's wrath is the vengeance of YHWH because of that time. The tribulation is exercised against the people of YHWH (How can that be if His people are gone?) culminating in the appearance of one infested with the spirit of Apollo (or Apollo himself) ascending to rule the world. The cruel grip of that 'man' is what kindles YHWH's anger to vengeance. That is when Yeshua comes for his bride, to take her out of the way - To put her in her (bridal) chamber...
When she is safe, YHWH's anger is poured out on the earth (the bowls/vials)... This is the wrath we are promised to be kept from.
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