Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Before that, let's establish some framework. Which of the Protestant derived faith groups do you most assemble with ?
I would go to Confession and receive the Sacrament of Penance.
Thanks. I have a lot of time at shipping and receiving locations, when waiting for an assigned load pickup or delivery. Or at truckstops, when I can study. I keep it simple on the road: no tv (not at home either), no internet, no smart phone. Just do my job, or rest, or study.
This time of year I work more local, trucking on construction jobs. Home nearly every night, but usually so late, it’s eat, shower, off to bed.
What people need to realize, is that the ‘spirits’ of scribes and Pharisees didn’t get left behind when the Lord began his church. They moved in, wanting their positions of authority there. Even being the assumed ‘preservers’ of the scriptures. The result is unspiritual teachings (but accepted by the people, since ‘those guys as so smart’), which the Lord, and the apostles, warned of. Paul warning of it as a present danger in his day.
Well, with that bold, defiant and prideful statement, I don't think you belong to either.
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Good luck!
**Before that, let’s establish some framework.**
Are you wanting to discredit the messenger, in a ‘guilty by association’ style basis? Are my questions to you that hard to answer? If I am so wrong, regardless of association, you should be able to answer my questions.......without using an organizational ‘framework’, but just by rightly dividing the scriptures.
Length of history, as an organizational ‘framework’, is not a sure basis for right and wrong. Stick with the Word. That’s the standard.
Respectfully,
Z
(which reminds me, I need to get some zzzzzz shortly)
Ah, the faithful Cathoolic, working their way to eternal life ... they think.
Jesus has a double claim of ownership on me.
One in that He created me.
The other that He paid the price to ransom me from being sold into sin.
I accepted His offer of eternal life so now I belong to Him.
It’s not a prideful or defiant statement to state the facts, and yes, I do state it boldly and plainly because it’s true and I am not ashamed of what I believe or more accurately WHO I believe.
Could you show us from Scripture where Jesus required attendance at a Catholic mass every Sunday without fail and taught that it was a mortal sin to not do so?
For freedom Christ has set us free. We are not under the bondage of religious observances to try to keep God pleased with us or to try to appease Him.
Jesus didn’t save me just to demand I go to church every Sunday.
He saved me because He loves me and because of that, out of gratitude for what He’s done and what He’s given to me, I live for Him every moment of the day. Not just on Sunday’s.
One in that He created me.
Suite yourself. Just keep in mind that He also created Lucifer and Hitler and mosquitos.
Your church's requirements for religious obligations apply only to those who choose to put themselves under its authority.
They do not apply to all men because your church does not have any authority or say in my spiritual life.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm
1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.
http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4073.htm
Jesus it the petra on which His body is built. HE'S the head of the church I belong to. You all can follow men if you want. I'll follow Jesus.
Who do you think created you?
Did you just *poof* into existence out of thin air?
Receiving the Eucharist is a live and death matter. If you had an understanding of the Bible you would run to the nearest Catholic Church and convert to the One, True, Apostolic church. There is no other. Started by Christ himself 2,000 years ago.
God created me.
“God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.”
I intend to continue to serve Him, unlike Lucifer and some on this forum.
Those requirements are obligatory of all men desiring to go to Heaven. Or do the prots somehow get out of obeying the Third Commandment?
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html
“Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.’” (Mt. 26:26-28)
Ah yes, who I believe. It seems like someone should write a song. Oh wait, Daniel W Whittle did. 😂 BTW MM, I did not go to church on Sunday, but I had a good reason. Do you think I committed the unpardonable sin? 😱🙀😩😄
Where is Catholicism mentioned in the third commandment?
And who decided that it meant going to Catholic mass under the threat of damnation?
You do realize that those who are in Christ have died to the Law and are not under obligation to keep it?
The Law was for the Jews. Those in Christ are free from having to obey it.
Typical c atholic, leaves out the ‘Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of Me’. And you think God is please with you when you practice to deceive? ... No wonder so many catholics vote solid democrat!
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