Posted on 08/17/2015 6:07:35 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
It is that time of week again, where we talk about the Mary, the Mother of God. This is definitely the single most important title that Mary has. If someone gets this wrong, then they get the Divinity of our Lord wrong, and that means the whole plan of Salvation is just messed up. So let us look at this most important title.
Theotokos, God-bearer in Greek, is what the council of Ephesus declared in 431. It specifically says this “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.” Now just that statement alone proves the early Church believed that there was Authority given to the bishops to decide sound doctrine, Mary was a Holy Virgin her entire life, and that She bore God. However, we only have time for one today.
Now many times we will hear non-Catholics tell us that this title is nowhere found in Scripture, explicitly at least. However, they cannot themselves find a Scripture verse that says that all doctrine and dogma must be explicitly proven in Scripture. I bet they can never find that. This is a trap they set up for themselves and it is a very unfair double standard that they expect us to meet, but they do not have to. However, on top of this double standard is if we used that same standard, then the doctrine of the Trinity is thrown out, since it’s not an explicit teaching, but instead is implicit in Scripture. This double standard seems to cause more problems that it’s worth wouldn’t you say?
Here is the cold hard truth of it though, all Christians rely on some Church Tradition, as well as Scripture, to validate their doctrines, whether they admit it or not. With that being said, Scripture and Tradition can never contradict one another. The Traditions of men can contradict the Word of God, but the Traditions God left us, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, are binding upon us, as we are to hold fast to Traditions. So then, what is the real question? The real question is, Does Scripture contradict the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, and is that doctrine found in Scripture at least implicitly?
Let us begin with Luke 1:43, where Mary visited Elizabeth. There Elizabeth exclaimed “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Because Mary was the Mother of the Lord, who is the Second part of the Holy Trinity, Mary is truly and rightfully called the Mother of God.
We also see in Isaiah 7:14 “Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is interpreted God with us.” Jesus is God. He was God when He was in the womb, conceived, lived, died, buried, resurrected, in the Eucharist, and in Heaven. The Messiah, who is God, was to be born of a virgin, according to Scripture. God was born of a virgin, and it’s right there in Isaiah, who prophesied of Christ birth. That means both Old and New Testament support the Catholic Doctrine of the Mother of God.
However, this may not be enough for some non-Catholics. Some say that Elisabeth called Christ Lord, and not God, saying that Mary was only to give birth to the human child, the Lord Jesus Christ. So then the question becomes, does lord here mean divinity or just authority? Let’s look at the context.
First let us look at 1 Cor. 8:5, which states “Indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” St. Paul makes it clear that Jesus is the one True, Lord, as opposed to all the false ones, that the pagans who converted in Corinth were probably worshiping. So then, they would understand that Jesus is God. This holds true to the Jews who converted too, who would know Deut. 6:4 “Hear, therefore, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
So then that brings us back to Luke 1:43. Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of her Lord. The Mother…Mothers give birth to persons, not natures, let us remember that. Mary did not just give birth to the human nature of Christ, she gave birth to the person of Christ. Christ personhood is Divine, it is God the Son.
Then let us look at 2 Sam. 6:9 where the King, who was David says “How can the ark of the Lord come to me (being the ark of the covenant)” Then in 2 Samuel 616 we see King David leaping in the presence of the Ark, just as John the Baptist did. Then we yet again see another parallel, which says that the ark of the Lord abode in the house of Obededom the Gethite for three months (2 Sam. 6:11), and according to Luke 1:56 Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth about three months. Then, we see that the ark of the covenant carried three items, manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod. These are all types of things Christ are, the Bread of Life, Word made Flesh, and our true High Priest.
Even knowing all this though, there are still those who would deny that Mary is the Mother of God. So then we have to ask, who is Jesus Christ to them? If Mary is not the Mother of God, then who did she give birth to? Many would say it was an earthly human lord, not God. So then, what does that make Christ? If Mary did not give birth to God, then who did she give birth to? Was not Christ God when He was conceived?
If someone says Mary only gave birth to the person of Christ one of two errors, or both could happen, and that is the Denial of the divinity of Christ, and that one would have to say Christ is two distinct persons, and that he is not One. Both were considered heresy in the Early Church. Christ is one Person, with two natures, Divine and Human, which go together and are not separate of one another. If one denies that, the ultimately they are speaking about a different Christ, and St. Paul warns us about that problem, and to not to give heed to them (2 Cor. 11:4).
So then, some say that Mary is the mother of the Trinity if we take it that far, however, this is not true. Mary gave birth to the 2nd part of the Trinity, the 2nd Person, who is still God just not the Trinity. However, we must never forget that each Person in the Trinity shares the same Divine Nature and is fully God.
One thing some still point out is that Christ is eternal, so for Mary to be the Mother of God she would have to be God. However the Church does not say Mary is the source of the Divine Nature of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. To better understand this let’s look at humanity. Parents give birth to a person, however they are not the author of life, and certainly did not give the child it’s soul. Thus is true with Mary, she did not give Christ His Divine Nature, though she was the Mother of more than just the human form of Christ, because she gave birth to a person, who was God.
Thatns.
Every time the child Jesus and his mother are mentioned together, he is mentioned first (vv. 11, 13–14, 20–21).
That should have been “Thanks!”
oops.
He is first as He should be.
I’ve heard on this thread not a single Christian recorded in the NT found Jesus in scripture. So while the Messianic Promise of Gen 3:15 is well know, He wasn’t referred to as Jesus in Genesis so that must account for the confusion. Either that or the OT isn’t scripture either in reality or for the sake of this conversation. Apparently reading scripture can be idol worship as well so watch out for those Bible Studies!
Tim Staples demonstrates that these truths are taught in Scripture. They are foreshadowed in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament passages are cited by the New Testament authors.
Since you have not read Staples’s book, you can assert all you want that he is mistaken, but you have no credibility.
Yes. “Ebb” and “Tide”.
And Staples qualifications are.....what?
You're funny. Lightning preferentially strikes well grounded objects.
Maybe that should be “Roll” “Tide”??
Please, see post 32. You can’’t quote one part of the Bible and deny another part of it.
“Mary is the mother of “God with us.” “
You will believe whatever your church teaches you, apparently. Your call.
We will disagree. God never calls Mary the mother of God. He never makes her into a demigodess - positioned between people and God. He never gives her special powers.
If it was true, He would have included it in His Word. He did not.
I certainly wish you the best. I just disagree with your private interpretation of Scripture to read into it your pre-existing belief.
Best.
Roll, I read post 32. What are you talking about?
Explain yourself.
“Tim Staples demonstrates that these truths are taught in Scripture. They are foreshadowed in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament passages are cited by the New Testament authors.”
No doubt, as a Catholic who MUST believe what your denomination teaches about Mary, he sees it everywhere.
Frankly, I see horses and people’s faces in clouds. The difference between Tim Staples and I is that I know they are not really there. It just appears to my eye that they are there because of my familiarity with the idea. But they are not real horses and faces friend. They are clouds which I imposed my idea upon as Tim does with the Scriptures.
“Since you have not read Staples’s book, you can assert all you want that he is mistaken, but you have no credibility.”
First, I don’t need to be judged as having a shred of credibility by you. Why would I?
I have the inspired Word of God. I’ve studied it for decades, in English. In Greek. In Hebrew. I’ve outlined the whole thing, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book. I’ve taught through vast portions verse by verse. I’ve translated portions.
The truth comes from Scripture, not from a book by a guy who is reading Marian Faces into Scripture that didn’t arise until syncretic paganism was incorporated into the Imperial Roman version of Christianity.
To spot a counterfeit, you only need to know the original well.
I wish you well Arthur.
“You’re funny. Lightning preferentially strikes well grounded objects. “
Exactly as we see happening here. In particular, people never appreciate it when you invalidate their sense of reality. Yet it is what they need, which is why we are discussing things on this open thread, instead of it being a caucus thread. All progress starts with telling the truth. Let the lightening strikes come.
The grounding in His Word protects me quite well, thankfully.
Best to you ebb tide (nice screen name)
The Bereans search the scriptures to prove what Paul taught them about Salvation by The Grace of God in Christ. No doubt Paul taught them about Abraham being saved by believing God and it was counted for him righteousness. It would be easy for Paul to then connect the faithing by Abraham tot he one whom Abraham believed was coming to be His Redeemer. There are several in the Septuagint which they had then who are spoken of as professing’ I know that my Redeemer liveth’ or ‘he looked forward to my day’, as Jesus spoke of David and the hallmarks of Hebrew Faithing.
The title “Mother of God” is derived from the revelation of scripture.
1. The Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
2. The Son: The Word of God, in the beginning with God. Identified as Jesus, who said about Himself, “before Abraham was, I Am”.
3. The incarnate Son of God is the 2nd person of the Trinity.
4. Mary was the mother of the incarnate Jesus, the 2nd person of the Trinity.
5. If each person of the Trinity can be addressed as God, then Mary is the mother of God, that is, the incarnate 2nd person of the Trinity. She is not the mother of the Father or of the Holy Spirit, or even of the pre-incarnate 2nd person of the Trinity.
Again Hmmmmmm? So you are saying they weren't reading the NT? That there were scriptures before that? Catholicism sure is confusing. Good thing the Vatican is around to clarify all these important points.
**Do you affirm or deny that Mary is the mother of “God with us” according to the scriptures ?**
Do you affirm or deny that Jesus Christ said: “..The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”?
Do you affirm or deny that the phrase “God the Son” is never used by Jesus Christ, or the apostles, in the holy scriptures?
Is it so hard to believe the scriptures, that show Jesus Christ (remember? our example?), praying to the Father, and never to any anybody else; not to any of the prophets, or to Noah, or Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, etc?
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