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To: BlatherNaut
Please provide pre-Vatican II teaching that supports popes changing the purpose and infallibility of a general council, including pre-Vatican II support for the Paul VI comment that you deem conclusive. So far you have given me nothing of the sort. You just keep repeating Paul VI general audience comments as if *they* are infallible. And what about *these* Paul VI comments from the same General Audience in 1966 regarding his intentions/view of VII (it is interesting how they are always ignored by those convinced that this was just "pastoral" and fallible):

In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statements of dogmas endowed with the note of infallibility but it still provided its teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium which must be accepted with docility according to the mind of the Council concerning the nature and aims of each document.

Or this one:

The Council is a great act of the magisterium of the Church, and anyone who adheres to the Council is, by that very fact, recognizing and honoring the magisterium of the Church…

When I researched general councils and Church infallibility, I learned that general councils are infallible. Period. Not sometimes infallible; sometimes not. Anytime I did find such propositions, it was being promoted by some post-Vatican II Catholic using it to make sense of the resultant mess. In addition, as a side note, I could not find any such thing called a Pastoral Council in the history of the Catholic Church.

Stick with pre-Vatican II support. Anything else should be held with extreme suspect.

23 posted on 08/15/2015 2:21:16 PM PDT by piusv
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To: piusv
Please provide pre-Vatican II teaching that supports popes changing the purpose and infallibility of a general council, including pre-Vatican II support for the Paul VI comment that you deem conclusive. You just keep repeating Paul VI general audience comments as if *they* are infallible.

Are you referring to the statement “In view of the conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present Council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so" (which, btw, was not only read to the council participants, but also published as an addendum to Lumen Gentium)? The statement plainly indicates the Pope's intentions.

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57. Powers of the Pope

What are the chief powers of the Pope? --The Pope has supreme and complete power and jurisdiction to decide questions of faith and morals and to arrange the discipline of the universal Church.

The power of the Pope extends over every single church, every single bishop and pastor, every one of the faithful. He may appoint and depose bishops, call councils, make and unmake laws, send missionaries, confer distinctions, privileges, and dispensations, and reserve sins to his own tribunal.

The Pope is the supreme judge; to him belongs the last appeal in all cases.

The Pope is the "teacher of all Christians", the "chief shepherd of the shepherds and their flocks". "Peter, standing up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice and spoke out to them ..." (Acts 2:14). The word "Pope" is derived from the Latin term papa, which means "Father".

The Pope is independent of every temporal sovereign and of every spiritual power. He is responsible only to God. (My Catholic Faith, Bishop Louis L. Morrow, 1949) http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc057.htm

As the Pope is "responsible only to God", it can't logically be claimed that he lacks the power and authority to set whatever parameters for a council which he deems fit.

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Ecumenical: a council for the universal Church to which all bishops and others entitled to vote are called from the entire world to gather under the Pope or his legates to determine the interpretation of doctrines or laws for the Church. The decrees of such a council, after papal sanction, apply to the universal Church and bind in conscience. (The Concise Catholic Dictionary, Imprimatur Archbishop of Milwaukee, 1943).

Pope Paul VI, as supreme legislator, was the ultimate arbiter and interpreter of VII teachings, and as such, his intent to limit the infallibility of the council to those teachings which "the Synod itself openly declares" infallible could not be more relevant to this discussion. To ignore the parameters he had every right to set is to disregard the infallible teachings of Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus). Last time I checked, the only role the laity has in the governance of the Church is to pray for the prelates and the Pope. It's not within our purview to determine in what manner popes operate councils.

When I researched general councils and Church infallibility, I learned that general councils are infallible.

Only if that is the intention of the Pope. Obviously that was not the intention of Paul VI. Novelties were not taught infallibly.

24 posted on 08/16/2015 10:55:38 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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