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To: piusv
Please provide pre-Vatican II teaching that supports popes changing the purpose and infallibility of a general council, including pre-Vatican II support for the Paul VI comment that you deem conclusive. You just keep repeating Paul VI general audience comments as if *they* are infallible.

Are you referring to the statement “In view of the conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present Council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so" (which, btw, was not only read to the council participants, but also published as an addendum to Lumen Gentium)? The statement plainly indicates the Pope's intentions.

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57. Powers of the Pope

What are the chief powers of the Pope? --The Pope has supreme and complete power and jurisdiction to decide questions of faith and morals and to arrange the discipline of the universal Church.

The power of the Pope extends over every single church, every single bishop and pastor, every one of the faithful. He may appoint and depose bishops, call councils, make and unmake laws, send missionaries, confer distinctions, privileges, and dispensations, and reserve sins to his own tribunal.

The Pope is the supreme judge; to him belongs the last appeal in all cases.

The Pope is the "teacher of all Christians", the "chief shepherd of the shepherds and their flocks". "Peter, standing up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice and spoke out to them ..." (Acts 2:14). The word "Pope" is derived from the Latin term papa, which means "Father".

The Pope is independent of every temporal sovereign and of every spiritual power. He is responsible only to God. (My Catholic Faith, Bishop Louis L. Morrow, 1949) http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc057.htm

As the Pope is "responsible only to God", it can't logically be claimed that he lacks the power and authority to set whatever parameters for a council which he deems fit.

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Ecumenical: a council for the universal Church to which all bishops and others entitled to vote are called from the entire world to gather under the Pope or his legates to determine the interpretation of doctrines or laws for the Church. The decrees of such a council, after papal sanction, apply to the universal Church and bind in conscience. (The Concise Catholic Dictionary, Imprimatur Archbishop of Milwaukee, 1943).

Pope Paul VI, as supreme legislator, was the ultimate arbiter and interpreter of VII teachings, and as such, his intent to limit the infallibility of the council to those teachings which "the Synod itself openly declares" infallible could not be more relevant to this discussion. To ignore the parameters he had every right to set is to disregard the infallible teachings of Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus). Last time I checked, the only role the laity has in the governance of the Church is to pray for the prelates and the Pope. It's not within our purview to determine in what manner popes operate councils.

When I researched general councils and Church infallibility, I learned that general councils are infallible.

Only if that is the intention of the Pope. Obviously that was not the intention of Paul VI. Novelties were not taught infallibly.

24 posted on 08/16/2015 10:55:38 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut
Actually the appendix in LG mentions "defining" matters of faith and morals which refers (again) to the Extraordinary Magisterium, not the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which Paul VI most certainly did refer to in the other quote I posted up-thread ("supreme authority"). Paul VI NEVER said that VII was NOT infallible, just not infallible based on the EM, based on solemn definitions.

By the way, did you know that the quote you refer to also had an additional sentence?:

Other matters that the Sacred Synod proposes as being the doctrine of the Supreme Magisterium of the Church must be received and embraced by each and every one of Christ’s faithful in accordance with the intentions of the Sacred Synod itself, manifested either by the subject matter or by the manner of expression, according to the norms of theological interpretation.”

Once again this offers similar evidence. Vatican II did not define matters of faith and morals (EM), but it did teach faith and morals via the OUM. Both of which are infallible. And, remember, pastoral doesn't preclude infallible.

Many of the errors in Vatican II were absolutely regarding faith and morals and should not have contradicted the OUM. And yet they did! We have errors in a General Council! When does the Holy Spirit allow errors in the teaching of faith and morals to enter a (supposedly, infallible) General Council of the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH!?

It's pretty clear you have dug your heels in on this one and we will never see eye to eye. As far as I'm concerned this is plain as day. This Council was meant to be infallible, meant to teach the Faithful via the OUM...and it failed. It contradicted previous Magisterium.

The question is why did it fail? Where was the Holy Spirit to protect the pope from teaching error to the universal Church??? The only answer that makes sense to me is that Paul VI was not a true pope.

25 posted on 08/16/2015 6:37:22 PM PDT by piusv
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