Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
I know. Sorry. I formatted the next post.
Thanks for that.
Yes...thank you for the junior high response. Now, if you can talk like a grown up.
CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
This false belief stems from the non-canonical book of 2 Maccabees and the notion of praying for the dead....all of which is against what is taught in the New Testament.
Which lead to another false teaching regarding indulgences which have undergone, some, shall we say revisions after the rcc was busted for its practices back in the day.
In Pope Paul VI's revision of the rules concerning indulgences, these expressions were dropped, and replaced by the expression "partial indulgence", indicating that the person who gained such an indulgence for a pious action is granted, "in addition to the remission of temporal punishment acquired by the action itself, an equal remission of punishment through the intervention of the Church".[51]
Historically, the practice of granting indulgences, and the widespread[52] associated abuses, led to them being seen as increasingly bound up with money, with criticisms being directed against the "sale" of indulgences, a source of controversy that was the immediate occasion of the Protestant Reformation in Germany and Switzerland.[53] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Role_in_relation_to_sin Which leads to this published in 2005 from the Compendium of the Catechism of the catholic church.
211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.
So catholics are back to being able to "buy" for those in purgatory or they have to do a "work" for them. Catholics are back where they were before the Reformation. Guess you gotta keep that money coming in. A televangelist would be envious of this scheme.
All of this goes against the teaching of the New Testament. We have this in Hebrews.
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27 NASB)
If the blood of Christ is insufficient to forgive all sins while we're alive, what more can be done to cleanse us from our sins??
Catholics might as well rebuild the Temple and begin offering sacrifices again. You're back to a works based system. Good luck with that.
Thanks for the ping. I have read Post #8 and Post #50. Both are interesting testimony.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT25.HTM#2
Yep....it's about the money.
No wonder Luther called out the false practices of the roman catholic church.
I thought a moratorium was called on these anti-Catholic attack threads.
Exposing false teachings is an attack now? Good thing Paul didn’t see it that way.
Looks like a valid religion discussion topic to me.
The scriptures are very plain on this; one must be raised in the spirit (”in the air” - KJV) at the Day of Trumpets to avoid the second death.
Imaginary wealth builder programs like “Purgatory” are of no spiritual value; they are strictly of the mind of men.
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Nice formatting!
Do you believe even one word of that?
That has nothing to do with purgatory!
All of it happens in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.
When someone’s experience contradicts or adds to the Word of God, no matter how deeply held, it is false. This regardless of denomination.
**The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin.**
False statement by the author. I won’t read any further, because he does not have the COMPLETE Bible.
Yes, there is a Purgatory, and you would know that if you had the COMPLETE Bible.
“False statement by the author. I won’t read any further, because he does not have the COMPLETE Bible.”
Sorry Salvation. I realize your denomination must believe that, but hundreds of millions of Christians worldwide do not believe that. They can just as easily tell you that you included non-inspired books. As such, your argument is not very persuasive.
If I were in your shoes, and was concerned about theology and truth, it would concern me that I believed a doctrine with no support from the Apostles, but was Jewish literature. If however, I were in your shoes and just believed whatever I was told, that would probably not matter to me. And of course, you will believe whatever you choose to believe, as is your right.
There are reasons why the Canon was revisited and refined.
Best.
I disagree. Catholics provided the Canon of the Bible.
Others rejected it. The sin is in their thinking, or you might say, on their hands.
I studied the doctrines and the evidence was strongest for the Catholic Church. There were too many contradictions with Protestantism.
Please let us know how suicide can be a noble act. (2 Maccabees 14)
You can certainly disagree! That in itself does not make you correct, obviously... Jews did not accept it. The Jewish Canon was complete before Christ was born.
Here’s some information for others who wonder about the Apocrypha and its shortcomings... and are not bound to believe whatever they are taught.
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Why do non-Catholic authorities and biblical churches reject the Apocrypha as being a part of the sixty six books of the canon?
There are mainly four reasons:
1. They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms.
2. They teach doctrines, which are false and foster practices, which are at variance with inspired Scripture.
3. They resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with inspired Scripture.
4. They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine Scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling and biblical truth.
Why do biblical Christians and churches reject the Apocrypha as being inspired of God?:
1. These books existed before New Testament times, yet there is not one single quotation from the Apocrypha in the New Testament. Jesus quoted from twenty-four of the Old Testament books, and the New Testament quotes from thirty four books of the Old Testament. Introductory phrases like “it is written” or “thus says the Lord” are totally absent from the books and therefore, the books themselves do not claim to be inspired of God.
The books of 1st and 2nd Maccabees have historical significance, but when they are compared to the Bible, they are shown to not be the inspired Word of God but simply extra biblical historical records. Even though they have some historical value these books are clouded by the contradictions found in their text. For example, in 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is recorded to have died three different deaths in as many different places.
2. Although some of the early church fathers quoted from these writings, and even accepted them as inspired, this does not mean they were inspired. These church fathers upon examination are shown to be often doctrinally unsound themselves. The majority of the early church writers rejected these books as being inspired. Clearly, in the Second Century and afterward there were many false teachers and heretics. It is important to know that Jesus nor any of the Apostles quoted from, or mention any of these books.
3. Some early Greek manuscripts contain the Apocrypha, along with the Septuagint. (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that legend dates between 3rd and 1st century BC). The Septuagint was translated in Alexandra, Egypt, which was a hotbed of heresy and false doctrine. From Alexandra also came the corrupted manuscripts of Alpeh, A, B upon which all modern English translations are based (the Westcott-Hort text). They, including of several of these books in the LXX, (Septuagint) was the natural result of the spirit of heresy and false teaching in Egypt. However, none of these books were ever included in the Hebrew Bible and were never accepted by the Jews. Further, no Greek manuscript contains the apocryphal books as does the Roman Catholic Bible. Moreover, not a single ancient manuscript contains all of the apocryphal books. Lastly, only four of the apocryphal books are found in copies of the LXX and these manuscripts date to the fourth century A.D. No copy of the Septuagint before that time has any Apocryphal books included which reflect the progression of heresy in Egypt.
4. The Jews are the ones who canonized the Books of the Old Testament and they did not include them. They have always excluded these Apocryphal books because the material in these books is heretical and contains gross doctrinal errors and clearly not inspired of God. Some of these gross doctrinal errors are; prayers for the dead (2 Macc. 12:45-46) and salvation by works. (Tobit 12:9). Praying for the dead is not biblical as Hebrews 9:27 plainly states, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” There is no second chance after death. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that salvation is not by works or merited by man. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” These are but two of the many doctrinal errors found in the spurious books.
[http://bible-truth.org/Apocrypha.html]
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Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible.
Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language (the Old Testament was written in Hebrew). All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church.
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:
Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:
Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.
Magic:
Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):
Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.
No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.
Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.
[http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm]
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