Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
I hope your experiences are better remembered than this scripture was.
I think it was Paul who referred to going up to the “Seventh Heaven.”
How hollow would Catholicism be today, if all the Mary apparitions and visitations and adorations and venerations were removed from it’s PRACTICE?
Define VALID.
It DOES?
HMMMmmm...
I guess Gramma is not going to be one of the Dead in Christ who RISE at the Last Trump.
Good answer!
But we must pray for poor ol’ Brucie.
Born a man and NOT proud of it...
Thanks for the reminder!
I’m going to set up the time lapse feature of my tablet and see what kind of results I get.
Something a teacher would do if there's confusion in class.
Thanks for your informative post, BlueDragon, and for going the extra mile. Your response made the contention itself understandable to this highly undereducated idjit.
A "valid marriage" is one where you don't have to call on Fr. Mulligan.
"Paging Father Mulligan... Paging Father Mulligan... Please come to the office with a deposit slip."
No Malachi, no Writings, nothing after the book of Zechariah.
Jesus literal words said from Abel to Zechariah, from Genesis to Zechariah.
Accepted Jewish canon TORAH The Five Books of Moses: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy NEVI’IM The Prophets: Joshua Judges 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekial The Twelve Minor Prophets: Hosea Joel Amos Obadiah Jonah Micah Nahum Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah Malachi KETHUVIM The Writings: Psalms Proverbs Job The Song of Songs Ruth Lamentations Ecclesiastes Esther Daniel Ezra Nehemiah 1 Chronicles 2 CHRONICLES
Jewish canon according to the limits that Jesus used in Matthew: TORAH The Five Books of Moses: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy NEVI’IM The Prophets: Joshua Judges 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekial The Twelve Minor Prophets: Hosea Joel Amos Obadiah Jonah Micah Nahum Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah
This is based on a literal understanding of "From Able to Zechariah".
I find it telling that a catholic website lists the books of the Hebrew canon as noted with Chronicles coming at the end.
With Jesus referencing Abel to Zechariah in Matthew and Luke (11:51) (Genesis to Chronicles) this omits the apocrypha and any legitimate claim to including these books as part of the canon. It may be one of the reasons Jerome did not want to include them.
It further refutes several catholic doctrines such as purgatory, praying to the dead, etc.
Understanding the context of the passage helps in this situation.
We are rightly handling the Word.
And the Catholic crucifix does nothing to remind us of Jesus Christ's real suffering - Separation from the Father.
Many people suffered the death of Roman crucifixion.
OTOH...
The empty Cross - and the empty GRAVE remind us of Christ's reconciliation with the Father.
AND our own reconciliation with God, through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. (See Eph 4:7,8)
(I Cor 15:3,4) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received:that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
So, in a sense, (I hope this sticks with someone out there) the Catholic crucifix should remind us of eternal separation from God... a fate that falls on anyone who doe not put all of their trust in Christ alone. (Christ plus nothing!)
(Rom 10:9,10) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
.
I serve a Risen Savior!
Agreed context is everything, and he has just limited the Jewish canon to Genesis to Zechariah. There is no proof that he is referring to Chronicles. Now if we were using the Catholic /Christian order of the canon I could agree with you up to a point. Since the order of our canon is Torah, writings, Prophets.
It’s easy. Provide the list you have been asked for.
It’s a simple request.
Why don’t you?
Man’s decision that a marriage is invalid does not mean God thinks it is. It’s just an easy out on a “technicality” that someone invented for someone who wants to break their marriage vows.
IOW, church sanctioned divorce.
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