Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
Jesus is the TRUE light that lights every man. I was referring to the realm that MASQUERADES as an angel of light. Let the reader judge.
Baloney!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't need to be involved with the demonic in order to be open to the Holy Spirit.
“Are you now saying that Jesus is occult as He did these very things many times? I would strongly disagree.”
Really? Please point me to where Jesus did what you fancied yourself doing with the ill-suited Italian soul. Like I said, you can ply this theme only with the gullible who are listening to deceitful spirits that teach doctrines of demons and the so-called deep secrets (occult = knowledge of the hidden) of Satan.
The FReepers rooted in God’s Word—the plumb-line that tests all “experience”—have given you no quarter in your fanciful imaginations. I’ve studied much New Age mumbo jumbo and your lingo is straight from there, blending in the words of Christ but missing/changing their meaning.
Well, SON there is no secret to it. It is proclaimed openly by His representative named Paul of Tarsus, and the Four Gospel accounts by Matthew Mark Luke and John. It is no secret that Believe on Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Even Jesus stated it openly in several places recorded by the Gospel accounts. Believe on Jesus Christ. When the Pharisees demanded to know what they must do, Jesus replied very forthrightly with : John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
When Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, came to Jesus by night to ask about Messiah, Jesus told him: John 3:3Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." ... 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Denial is not just a river in Egypt, SON.
You have shown yourself to be a patient witness in these discussions, which is also very helpful and instructive.
Thank you!
You are being deceived and willingly it would appear. Satan used a similar trick on Eve, telling her that God said they could eat of every tree in the Garden. When Even offered a weak correction, satan countered with an assertion designed to cancel doubt and do the wrong thing.
The Holy Spirit of God is not manipulated nor does He manipulate. He comes into the cleansed spirit and a person is thus born from above. You make assertions that are fashioned upon a lie. You assert that we must not deny all spirits because we will deny the Holy Spirit. That is a satanic lie designed to keep your gate open to the deceiver.
One cannot manipulate God's Holy Spirit. He places His Spirit in the faither. A man does not put Him in them and they cannot put Him out of them. Jesus assured every one of that, if you have God's Spirit in you: John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
The Bible is clear that we are not to consult the spirit realm. You cannot deny Him who is in you, if you are actually born from above. So denying deceiving, cloying spirits cannot bring you to deny Him Who is in you. If one is listening to 'spirits' the Spirit of God is not in them, because He will not allow them to be plucked from the two hands of God. Iplead with you to examine yourself to see what spirit is deceiving you, before it is too late.
“chapter, verse and translation/version please.”
Isaiah 8:19-20 NIV
Here is the King James Translation:
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Some spirits have light in them that shines as bright as can be. Yes, satan tries to imitate the Light to deceive people. But he can only deceive you with your intellect and logic if you cannot truly see his soul. There is no mistaking satan’s soul as when you see it, it is dark, heavy and when you feel it, it is ice cold and draws your Light away from your soul.
God’s unconditional Love is the exact opposite of satan’s energy. It is bright, freeing, light and unconditional while satan is controlling and conditional to manipulate you.
You are completely mis-reading this text if you think it is a command to consult the dead. It is warning not to consult the dead, but rather, to consult God.
“You are completely mis-reading this text if you think it is a command to consult the dead. It is warning not to consult the dead, but rather, to consult God.”
You and I are in 100% agreement on this.
This is why Jesus said to the man who wanted to follow Jesus after the he went and buried his father, “Let the dead bury the dead.”
The term dead vs alive is also used to mean full of the Holy Spirit vs empty whether a spirit is in the body or separated from one.
“Jesus didn’t negotiate with dead spirits.”
“He commanded evil spirits and ordered them out.”
Your are going in circles by trying to incorrectly state my words. And then arguing with what I did not say.
First, if Jesus commanded spirits, He communicated with them.
Second, I never said I negotiated with spirits. I too command them in Jesus’ name. Or, I merely deal with spirits by praying to my Father in Heaven to take care of them.
Nothing unscriptural about this.
“Testing the spirits”, in the context of 1 John has to do with the TEACHING of false antichrists who “went out from us” (John and the others). It has nothing to do with spiritism or demonism. The false teachers TAUGHT lies from Satan. Test THOSE spirits, the proclamations emanating from principalities and powers in the heavenlies, spoken out by PEOPLE who listen to them and want to share them.
You are dealing with the demonic. They are posing as dead people.
You can’t help those already dead.
They are in God’s hands and it’s HIS job to deal with them.
Focus on the living. The dead are beyond our help.
Don't just THINK; know!
As to discernment, when you can read the soul you immediately know the purity of it and have discernment.
This sure beats MIND reading; which is a NO-NO on FR!
Dang!
I'll have to get out my flippin' coin!
But if you persist in accepting all spirits, you will end up failing to discern the Holy Spirit.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why you read a verse in context and understand the audience and issue the writer is addressing.
John is not advocating testing the spirits of the dead or communicating with those.
That damned Luther removed:
...that whoever believes in him and performs all the required sacrements should not perish, but have eternal life."
Actually; Satan created DOUBT with a question:
Did GOD REALLY say...?
It is NOT recorded that Eve had heard the voice of GOD before this time; so she had no FACTS to back up HER statement; which included...
...or TOUCH IT.
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