Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
‘Splains why He’s still on the cross in their world.
I suppose it feeds the flesh (and pride) to think we need to do something to show how sorry we are for our sin.
But God tells us to just come to Him and He will grant forgiveness, free and clear, no strings attached.
People are always suspicious of things that seem too good to be true.
But in God’s case, it is, and it is true.
My 4-year old asked my mom “Why is Jesus still on the cross in your house, Gramma?” Oops.
You coulda heard a wafer drop.
The quote may make a good movie line but it’s not scriptural.
There is one unforgivable sin: not accepting Christ when you know you should.
Never thought of it that way! Most excellent observation, m’Lady! And it would also explain the insistence that their priesthood continues to sacrifice their Christ in the Mass, eating their Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity. I seem to recall that one of the biggest disagreements of Mormons with xatholicism is the bloody continuation of the sacrifice which was finished in AD33.
Eggs Ackley! I got pilloried here for making that statement about the Church Age.
Then now it’s my turn to “suffer for what is good.”
I’ll still speak the truth.
That’s right....
For them the cross gains its significance by Jesus’ presence ‘on it’, they recognize it as ‘the cup’ he had to drink ..just as on their table.... I think they relate in that they cannot rise in Christ to new life without first dying with Christ on the Cross thus the pre-occupation with his sufferings on the cross.....Since they have no assurance of salvation they attain distorted comfort by relating to a crucified suffering Christ.
see post 368
After seeing the number of posts here about purgatory and suffering, since it’s clear that they think suffering expiates sin, it would make perfect sense to the Catholic mindset to identify with His suffering.
They’re thinking it somehow accomplishes something when the something we need has already been accomplished (past tense, done deal) by Christ on the cross.
The wages of sin is death, not dying.
It wasn’t Christ’s suffering or dying that took away our sin, but rather by His death that it was done.
The empty cross is symbolic of the victory in overcoming sin and death by His finished death, not His continual dying.
“out of the mouths of babes” as is said.
I remember a story of a little girl who walked into a church for the ‘first’ time...she was tiptoeing as she went...asked why..she said “This is a Holy place.”
Would we all give room to recall His Spirits Holy presence amidst our Worship services. Instead one often hears the drum beat and guitars at volumes sufficient to knock your socks off!
What is seen is not of faith. There is no faith needed when something is seen.
We walk by faith, not by sight.
Not to mention the irreverent attitude of people in the church and the kids who are being allowed to run around like it’s a playground.
But that’s a whole ‘nother issue.
....”What is seen is not of faith. There is no faith needed when something is seen.....We walk by faith, not by sight”....
That’s very true and not easily grasped or experienced by those who ‘rely on’ tangible observances and other mediators other than the Risen Christ.
When you consider that if the bodily resurrection did not take place, many Christians have been persecuted and even died for a lie.....centuries of them!... This would be far more than sad if true,.... but we know the fact of the empty tomb and many eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus point to a man who was more than a man...He is the Messiah...He is God in the flesh.... Those who trust in Him will never be put to shame .....(Romans 10:11).
Jesus’ bodily, physical resurrection from the dead is ‘the single most important event in world history!....
...”that’s a whole ‘nother issue”...
Indeed it is..
Pride goes well beyond a “better than that” attitude....for ‘that’s’ simply what they emit outwardly and therefore is “dependent on” the worlds view of them. But generally Pride of that nature really just hides a very insecure individual who often does know his spiritual condition is lacking...
That’s the difference between experience and book learnin son. He didn’t write down the secrete recipe for “born again”, and yet he still said it exists. So I don’t know what to tell you other than you’ll figure it out later, rather than sooner.
Thanks for the follow up material. I don’t think I was in her class at all when I bought the farm, but it’s nice to know somebody else wrote about it. I appreciate it.
Btw, I left out the worst parts of my little confession for you civilians. Like why I was there in the first place. And I’ll still leave those parts out. But, all things considered, I was lucky to be in purgatory...
Imagine the worst thing you can do but for the best reason.
Had the same dream on the same date every year after I turned 28 or so. Then it just stopped.
Figured it out, looked myself(or whoever) up from 160 or so years ago. Turns out I was my own relative. Hung by the neck until dead in Ireland.
Was basically defending my family, but I crossed the line first and with deadly effect. Not sure if I actually defended my family in the end. It stops after the act. Not sure if it’s real, but my grandmother sure said it was before she passed. Had the papers. Have chests of documents from 300 years ago in fact. The events line up. I just don’t know if I’m the same guy, or it’s just a bizarre coincidence.
But I do know with clarity how I got here after that tour in the grey. That wasn’t ever a dream. Kinda strange. You remember the effect more than the cause. Thought it would be the other way around, but I guess it makes sense. You remember the last place you’ve been usually. Last place before poppin out here wasn’t river dancing in Ireland, so.. there’s that.
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