Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
Exactly right, they had the unedited canon. The exact same canon used in the LXX.
It might be an artifact of being translated from Spanish to Italian to English.
In Purgatory the souls do have an intense yearning for God, and this yearning is quite painful, so this state of intense yearning may have been lost in the description of those souls, again translating from Spanish to Italian then English.
Or maybe she really did use those words (absence of God) intending the above (separation from God causing a painful yearning) in other words a slip of the tounge. Remember that testimony is ultimately a transcript of what she said, not what she wrote.
All the more reason to have a guiding Tradition; often things get lost in translation.
Note: I only comment because that portion caught my eye too. The rest of her testimony is simply so much in line with authentic teaching that it simply must be true. This is my impression. It’s so detailed, so graphic in every detail, there’s no way that she is personally lying in my opinion.
The only question to really answer for everyone is: was she deceived in some way? But that’s really the question left for anyone to answer even beyond and above this testimony.
“Deceived” though, into being what? A better person who loves not only herself but every other person much more than she ever did before? Someone who loves Jesus, much more than ever before? The Devil would do that? Really?
I submit it can only be deception to believe what she experienced was a deception. It’s pure insanity to believe what she reports is of the devil. It should be a reason for everyone to give pause and reflect on at least the possibility of “how much am *I* in error here?”
Each and every one is responsible for his or herself. I personally don’t see how anyone can read that testimony and not be profoundly impacted. But maybe that’s just me.
The Catechism is a statement of Catholic Faith and it is also an argument. Address the argument.
“Exactly right, they had the unedited canon. The exact same canon used in the LXX.”
If you choose to interpret history that way, I support your right to do so, but ...
I will tell you I think it stretches credulity to choose to believe that for some reason, a tiny offset of isolated Jews knew more than the Jews in Jerusalem - who rejected the Apocrypha as inspired. Again, you will choose what to believe and I’m not trying to persuade you either way.
Does this line of argument make sense that some Jews somewhere believed the Apocrypha was inspired because you want to believe the same and need some kind of evidence? Or do you really believe it has the ring of historical truth?
It seems more likely to me that when Beta Israel initially went into exile they took with them the Septuagint, or acquired it in another way.
Best.
Woe to you who command others! If so many are damned by your fault, what will happen to you? If few out of those who are first in the Church of God are saved, what will happen to you? Take all states, both sexes, every condition: husbands, wives, widows, young women, young men, soldiers, merchants, craftsmen, rich and poor, noble and plebian. What are we to say about all these people who are living so badly? The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, “Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.”http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/12/20/many-people-will-saved-hell/
The Jews in Jerusalem were the same Jews that rejected Christ and the entire new testament. This occurred at the Rabbinical school at Jamnia/ Javnia around 90 AD. Why do you (all accept the canon of the group that rejected both Christ and the New testament? That is the question.
Interesting question... “Is there a purgatory?”
I never really thought about this. Usually, I try to answer questions based upon my own experiences first, then scripture and finally prayer on both.
If by purgatory, you mean an intermediary level or step where a person still carries their sin which is blocking them from going to Heaven, I would say a definite “YES.”
Over the years I have met many souls that were stuck in this realm without a physical body. You could call them ghosts, but I just refer to them as earthbound spirits. These spirits are stuck because they have accepted satan’s lie that “The Light will kill you so stay away from it.” Bottom line is that the portal and Light of Divine Love does not shine upon them through the layer of darkness that separates us from the heavenly realms. Thus they are not receiving the “Perfect Love” that is necessary to cast out the fear which in turn prohibits a spirit from passing through the etheric fence of the dark layer above and on into Heaven.
I’ve passed through this layer many times, once in my own death, once with my father while holding his hand when he died in a shared death experience and many times in deep prayerful meditation. It is beyond words. To tell the truth, I miss it so much I really don’t want to be here on earth anymore.
The reason I think there is a “purgatory” based upon my experiences is that I have encountered many spirits who were stuck here and were forgiven through me. This opened the portal of Divine Love and they were allowed to pass through to Heaven. I usually ask for souls who were friends of the stuck spirit to greet them and help them pass over.
There are other souls which are down right evil and no amount of prayer can open the portal for them. They do not belong in Heaven and will perish with fire if they try to enter. The low frequency of evil cannot exist in Divine Love as it is like placing a dense metal object in a microwave, it heats up and the sparks fly.
I’ve noticed that the dark layer or etheric fence is getting much thinner recently and Divine Grace here on earth is stronger than ever. I truly believe that we are entering the wonderful times Jesus spoke of “Heaven on Earth.” Too bad we must go through the labor pains first to get rid of the old to make room for the new.
One reason I feel we are in these special times is the work that is done through me in spite of me. I’m a simple soul, not deserving of being a tool, but yet somehow, I am!
Thank you for your thoughtful and thought-provoking reply. I appreciate what you are doing and your testimony based on experience.
Ping to post # 210.
Ask Jerome, Origin and Anathasius.
Decent question.
Jews had a complete Canon of Hebrew Scriptures before the time of Christ. It did not contain the Apocrypha.
Why is it important that Jews did not recognize the Apocrypha? Paul writes this in Romans 3:1,2...
"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God (Greek: logia)."
In addition to God entrusting the chosen people with His very Words, there was more:
“Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen” (Romans 9:4,5)
If God trusted the Jews with His Word, with the covenants, with His divine physical glory in the Temple Worship, with the promises, with the Patriarchs who resulted in the Gift of the Savior to all mankind, how can I do less?
*That* is why I believe their exclusion of the Apocrypha (and so much more not included in the Apocrypha) is so very significant.
As to their rejection of Messiah... that will be fixed. Zechariah says they will see Him in the sky and look upon Him who they pierced and mourn.
They will turn to Him.
T&R, thank you for your testimony.
Nyer, Sal & G2G: I recommend reading tired&retired’s testimony of his experience.
Thank you and I pinged a couple of other folks and thanked T&R for posting it.
. I fail to understand how the insufficient prayers of man can aid in the purification of anyone's sins.
Jerome accepted the canon and you can’t make a judgment based on the exceptions.
LXX
LXX to you too!
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