Ain't FR wunnerful??!
Posted on 07/26/2015 8:55:19 AM PDT by MHGinTN
Here is yet more information, for those who miss the Rapture and are here after the event. This is for people, not any particular congregation of people. Please, think about it ...
Yes. Daniel 7:13 is the Old Testament example of the coming of Christ that Thessalonians refers to. Strong's H6050 refers back to H6049 a "very large army". Remember Elisha opening the veil of the clouds and showing his armor-bearer the very large army God assembled for that day they would prevail? When we meet, it it be the clouds of people all taken up at once, good, bad, whatever. 7 billion of us at once.
Sorry, in this it is not "spirit" in Strong's Dictionary of his Concordance, nor is it "spirit" anywhere in the Authorized Version. It is never used in the figurative sense. In this, your claim is absolutely wrong:
The Strong's word for "spirit" is H7307 which of course also means "air". For a human to meet anyone in the "air" they must be in the spirit. When Thessalonians says anyone is going to meet anyone else in the air, that means that they must have moved into the Strong's H7307, into the spirit.
This is entirely presuming that the Seventh Trump of Rev. 11:15 has any connection with the trumpet of this context. Even the contexts are not the same. I just don't believe your hypothesis here can be given any serious recognition, because it is eisegesis, not exegesis, and even then forced. The correct frame of mind is given in the next chapter, verses 9 and 10: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." Not His tribulational wrath, because of the imputation of Christ's righteousness, and certainly not of Satan's. Furthermore, I believe the salvation mentioned here is not only the cetification of it by entrance into His Kingdom through justification by faith, but the realization of it by the saving through joining Him in the clouds in the new spiritual body. Anything else than that is not much of a salvation, is it?
Oh no! He wants the Tribulation to be a time of great glory for Him and for those that love Him. Remember what happened to the three Hebrews in Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, a fire seven times hotter to instantly kill anyone, and Jesus stood with them and not a hair was singed and no smell of smoke accompanied the three Hebrews when they emerged. All the prophets wanted to live in our time. Why? To run away? No! To stand against Satan. God's people have nothing to fear from the Tribulation, it's a time of glory for them.
A bit here; a piece there - pretty soon you've got some doctrine.
Ain't FR wunnerful??!
I am not 'saying' anything.
I posted the TEXT.
1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
What more is there to "fishing" than what you already know? Remember, Peter was a FISHERMAN. He KNEW everything there was to know about FISHING. Along comes Jesus who did not have the experience that Peter did, and yet in a moments time, there were more fish in the net than could be counted. Later, the miracle of fish took on an additional characteristic. The fish were counted totaling 153 fish.
One thing that you will not notice.... there is no explaination why the fish were counted in one place, and not counted in another place. The reason I say that you will NOT notice it is because it is a detail the is merely mentioned, and there is no explaination as to why it is mentioned. In fact, you may argue that it has no significance because if it is only merely mentioned, and God would have had Paul write a chapter in the Bible about it if it was significant. On the other hand, you may argue that it IS a significant detail because the mere mention of it makes it significant.
Verse 1 Thess 4:17 in English: "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "
Verse 1Thess 4:17 the underlined portion of the above sentence in the Greek for the Latin rendering the large, bolded word 'rapiemur': : harpagēsometha = ἁρπαγησόμεθα = 'will be caught away',
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Those who comprise the Body of Christ, The Spiritual Church of Jesus Christ, dead and alive, will be caught up, caught away, into the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air and return to where JESUS told His disciples in John 14 He was going to prepare a place for them and return to take them there. The There will you be also is not here, it is THERE. The place is presumed to be Heaven since that is the theme in John 14 as Jesus gives the famous physics lesson for Philip.
The Theological reason for the Rapture of the Church prior tot he Tribulation is this: during the Church Age there is no differentiation between Jew and Gentile, as the Holy Spirit is put in the believers born from above. These indwelt believers are the salt, the restrainer of lawlessness during the Church Age. Their life message has no differentiation between Jew and Gentile. During the Tribulation, those named in Rev 7:5-8 are tasked with the evangelization of the doubting, lie believing, anti-Christ following WORLD. The task of the sealed 144,000 Jews is to proclaim the soon coming of The Messiah to touch down on the Earth and establish the Millenial Kingdom. The Church of Jesus Christ will be made The Bride of Christ in Heaven during the time the evangelization is occurring on Earth. Then, as shown in Revelation 19, that Bride will return with The Bridegroom, to utterly dstroy the armies of deniaers who are arrayed to annihilate Israel and all Jews fromt he Earth. These beast worshipping armies are arrayed to defeat The Lord of Hosts, The King of Kings, and His army from Heaven, an army comprised of those who came up tot he wedding from the first half of the Tribulation and the Church Raptured before the Tribulation started.
Are you able to discern major differences between the Olivet Discourse and the Luke 21 Discourse given in the Temple, which warned of the coming Roman destruction of Jerusalem?
And the word "rapture" is not in the bible.
The English word is not but the Latin word ‘rapio’, in the form ‘rapiemur’ is in the Jerome translation of the Greek.
That's only your opinion, but it's a nice humbling ad hominem argument. This certainly carries a lot of weight, eh (/sarc)
The Latin word raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus is NOT in the Bible !
Your selection of possible English definition of the word "rapture" is disarmingly bereft of other nuances, for which resort to a good dictionary will supply your lack:
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Websters Third New International Dictionary (Unabridged), p. 1883:
rap-ture \rapchur\* n [L raptus pasr participle of rapere + Eng -ure]
1 archaic a: the act of seizing and carrying iff with force : forcible capture : ABDUCTION b: RAPE
2 archaic : the act of carrying or being carried along : force of onward movement
3 a : carrying of a person to heaven b : Christ's raising up of his true church and its members to a realm above the earth where the whole company will enjoy celestial bliss with its Lord
4 a: the state of being carried out of oneself : spiritual or emotional ecstasy : possession by an overwhelming emotion (as joy, love) b : an experience of this sort (the ~s of the deep hazardous to divers are caused by nitrogen narcosis)
5: a spasm or fit of emotion : PAROXYSM
6: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passionate feeling : RHAPSODY
7: a mystical phenomenon in which the soul is borne out of itself and exalted to a knowledge of divine things
rap-ture \ " \ vt-ED/ -ING/ -S : to transport with rapture (as of joy) : ENRAPTURE
=============
OK, from the above pick one or two which matches the meaning of the Greek word harpadzo, as given by Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon and as used in the context:
==============
Strong's No. G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G138
===============
Here are all the NT references for it:
Mt. 11:12, 13:19; Jn. 6:15, 10:12,28,29; Ac. 8:39, 23:10; 2 Cor. 12:2,4; 1 Thess. 4:17; Jude 23; Rev. 12:5
So the act of being "raptured" is in the Bible, in the Vulgate translation of 1 Thess. 4:17 by Jerome, as a verb in the future tense, passive voice, indicative mode, first person plural as "rapiemur", with "we" referring in context to those Spirit-born mortal persons to whom the epistle is addressed.
However, the same contextual meaning of it is there in the Holy Spirit's precise language written by Paul or by his amanuensis, as well as in the English translation authorized by the Crown of England as "caught up", and in the noun form Anglicized from the Latin, which describes the action performed as "rapture." Therefore, to maintain and promote your stance on this would be seen--now that you have been taught correctly--as a deliberate lie to prop up your rejection of the clear meaning of the context.
Also "notice", that do not stay "in the clouds", but we stay "with the Lord". And WHERE is the LORD going ?
Not where you have presumed to direct us, but to His Home for us:
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." (Jn. 14:3-4 AV).
Several things will happen there, the first of which will be to dispense with the chore of being examined at the bema seat judgment for His followers' earthly works (1 Cor. 3:14-15, Rom. 14:10, 2 Cor. 5:10, Mt. 25:13-29, Lk. 19:13-26). Then will he set His Kingdom in order, according to subsequent ability to govern (Rev. 2:26-27, 3:21), special awards (Rev. 2:17, 3:5, 3:12), and time for the Bride to prepare Herself (Rev. 19:7), whilst waiting for the fullness of the Tribulation to play out.
That's where.
What has Hebrews 11:33-40 and Hebrews 12:1-4 taught you ?
Since It took me nine years to memorize the book of Hebrews word for word, these are passages that occupied a bit of my attention. Of course, Hebrews 11:33-40 dwells on Old Testament saints, who walked with God in the Person of the Holy Ghost, but the New Testament saints were/are the ones who received the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Regarding 12:1-4, note that the writer speaks singularly of a cloud of witnesses. This is in the figurative-literal sense as referring to those souls and spirits in heaven, whom we cannot see in this material dimension, but who have some kind of heavenly form by which identification is made in that dimension (remember the rich man and Lazarus, for istance, and there are many). Hoever, these passages have little or nothing to do with the clearly literal sense of Jesus going into a visible cloud (Acts 1:9) , entering heaven in a visible cloud (Dan. 7:13) , or returning in/with visible clouds as the ones we see, made of microwater droplets suspended in the air medium (Acts 1:11, Mt. 24:50, Rev. 1:7) of the first heaven. What was the cloud over the Tabernacle made of? It was real, and very visible. Why not Jesus entering/exiting the heavenly dimension in just such a cloud?
But you might want to move a little further down to 12:18-29, and especially contemplate verse 25 to see if you will be on the escape list with the rest of those escaping by levitation and reconstruction,
Have you not learned ANYTHING ?
Yeah, some. And I'll learn more, for there will be Bible study in heaven, What about you? If you're teachable I could give you a lot to think of and put into practice. Actually, quite a lot.
and this:
Songs of Faith (click on Norma)
Thanks for the memories --
Norma Zimmer was a very fine Christian woman. I read her life story. Amazing and graceful!
Jesus told Peter, James, and John that now they would be fishers of men. Jerome says there were 153 species of fish in the Sea of Galilee. I think since there was every species of fish in the net that that meant the disciples would go to every ethnos of man.
Here is Rev 7:5-8:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand
Not seeing any testifying nor where it's just Jews.
Another opinion of Jerome.
To double down on "No" here is obviously redundant, but it is said to emphasize that your scheme is almost backwards of what is going on in Daniel 7:13. Your inapt choice of the context shows that this use of "clouds" is literal, not figurative-literal, the text clearly differentiates th clouds from the onlooking host, and the Son of Man is not exiting from heaven, He is entering the third Heaven. Matthew Henry (long before J. N. Darby) gives the correct understanding of the cloud(s) of Heaven:
". . . when he returned to the Father the eye of his disciples followed him, till a cloud received him out of their sight, Acts 1:9. He made that cloud his chariot, wherein he rode triumphantly to the upper world. He comes swiftly, irresistibly, and comes in state, for he comes with the clouds of heaven. 3. He is here represented as having a mighty interest in Heaven. When the cloud received him out of the sight of his disciples, it is worth while to enquire (as the sons of the prophets concerning Elijah in a like case) whither it carried him, where it lodged him; and here we are told, abundantly to our satisfaction, that he came to the Ancient of days; for he ascended to his Father and our Father, to his God and our God (John 20:17); from him he came forth, and to him he returns, to be glorified with him, and to sit down at his right hand."
In Daniel's vision, verse 14, the Son of Man was elevated in authority, above that of Satan on the earth, wherefore Jesus was able to return to earh for forty days, proclaim his exousia authority to His disciples at Galilee, and delegate them to go forth and make disciples, commanding that these made disciples be inducted and instructed. Then He finally was received back to heaven in a cloud, from whence He is likewise to return (in the clouds of the first heaven) in the fullness of time.
When He comes to receive His Own unto Himself, that where He is, His Bride also might be:
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know" (Joh 14:3-4 AV).
Now, PG, you would have those accompanying Jesus in His Second Coming be the cloud (singular), rather than be with Him in the clouds (plural), but this is not possible. Remember now, when He comes for His Own Friends and Bride, their souls cannot normally be seen with the eyes of the mortal, because they have not yet been rejoined to their revamped bodies in midair. However, Scripture indicates that the mortal eye can see the cloud of mist that diffuses and back-scatters visible light, before the dead are quickened and rise. But after that happens those who are yet alive will also be reconfigured and taken away with their no-longer-physically-dead confreres. I'm pretty sure then that there will be a "cloud" of saints in the clouds of the air, being taken back into Heaven with Him.
The Strong's word for "spirit" is H7307 which of course also means "air".
Well, very simply, in 1 Thess. 4:17 the Holy Spirit precisely chooses to use the Greek word αερα (air) which is always literal and cannot mean "spirit," rather than the word πνεῦμα which could mean either "air/wind" or "spirit," as in Jn. 3:8, according to context. I suspect the Holy Spirit chose this word αερα specifically to defeat the approach in interpretation that your doctrine takes you.
Remember what happened to the three Hebrews in Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, . . .
What you can take with you from this story is that the Son of Man has already withstood this for us, so that we do not have to do it again to earn our way to heaven, as you seem to have it.
The bottom line is that your hypothesis doesn't hold up.
This is the end of the line on this thread for me. But thanks for the challenge.
It looks to me like you confirmed my point, that we will meet in the clouds, not water-vapor clouds, but clouds of heaven. These clouds are the clouds of people in their spirit bodies, in the "air" (spirit), spirit bodies being partially what heaven is made of, and indeed the dead have preceded us, as Paul emphasized.
Now, PG, you would have those accompanying Jesus in His Second Coming be the cloud (singular), rather than be with Him in the clouds (plural), but this is not possible.
Cloud of spirits, or clouds of spirits, doesn't matter.
Remember now, when He comes for His Own Friends and Bride, their souls cannot normally be seen with the eyes of the mortal, because they have not yet been rejoined to their revamped bodies in midair.
This is the seventh trump, there will be no mortals. We will all have melted, our eyes dissolving in their sockets as the bible says. Don't worry, I don't think there will be time to look in a mirror. lol
However, Scripture indicates that the mortal eye can see the cloud of mist that diffuses and back-scatters visible light, before the dead are quickened and rise.
The dead have already risen. As the bible says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
But after that happens those who are yet alive will also be reconfigured and taken away with their no-longer-physically-dead confreres.
We will all be in the spirit.
I'm pretty sure then that there will be a "cloud" of saints in the clouds of the air, being taken back into Heaven with Him.
No, He is bringing His kingdom to earth. Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives taking over the earth and not one stone will be left upon an another. All those still alive will be melted as I said above. We all meet in the clouds of spirits, those who were just alive, and those who have died throughout the millennia. All spirits, good and bad, bow a knee to the Lord. So begins the Millennium. The 7,000 and the 144,000 are established as rulers and teachers. The rest of the spirits are given their inheritances and allotments. Kings and Queens of the ethnos are established throughout the earth. The elect teach discipline for 1000 years. Satan is then released a short season to see who still wants to follow him. The Great White Throne Judgment. Those who failed in the flesh and those who failed upon Satan's short release are burned up. We are changed into out eternal bodies and then the Eternal Kingdom.
Well, very simply, in 1 Thess. 4:17 the Holy Spirit precisely chooses to use the Greek word αερα (air) which is always literal and cannot mean "spirit," rather than the word πνεῦμα which could mean either "air/wind" or "spirit," as in Jn. 3:8, according to context. I suspect the Holy Spirit chose this word αερα specifically to defeat the approach in interpretation that your doctrine takes you.
But to do that you are saying than flesh is going into heaven and the dead will be put back into the flesh to go into heaven for 3 and a half years. If not then you confirm that there will be a meeting in the spirit (air). Unless you're saying that these hundreds of millions of flesh bodies are going to the same place that Elijah, Enoch (and maybe Moses) went. But God needed two witnesses to die in the streets of Jerusalem. I believe it will be Elijah and either Moses or Enoch. He doesn't need hundreds of millions, and the bible says every man must die once.
What you can take with you from this story is that the Son of Man has already withstood this for us, so that we do not have to do it again to earn our way to heaven, as you seem to have it.
God wants to see what we're made of so He knows what to to with each of us in the Millennium.
The bottom line is that your hypothesis doesn't hold up.
As I said earlier, the prophets wanted to live in this age, and I don't think it was to fly away from God's enemy.
This is the end of the line on this thread for me. But thanks for the challenge.
It's always interesting to have a discussion with those like you that study the manuscripts.
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