Posted on 07/26/2015 8:55:19 AM PDT by MHGinTN
Here is yet more information, for those who miss the Rapture and are here after the event. This is for people, not any particular congregation of people. Please, think about it ...
Yep, the ones Yeshua was “sent to.” (Matthew 15:24)
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There are repeater cells reserved for Ham use in several bands.
Have you read Galatians? REALLY? I don’t get ANY of what you’re talking about from there. There was no slander, just a rebuke: “Better is open rebuke than hidden love”.
I’ve run across the thread of logic you’re dabbling in and it’s completely counter to Christ and his appointment of Paul. Be very careful FRiend.
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Ahhh! - You’re not taking your Prevagen.
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It seems sensible to me. Maybe you didn’t get any responses because nobody has a decent argument to answer you with?
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LC lost his ability to be sincere on RF threads eons ago!
We’re all here for the ‘Bashing’ now!
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John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
If you believe, you are saved.
If you don't believe, you aren't saved.
Anything else is incidental because the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit who is our guarantee of our inheritance. God works on correcting errors once we are His. He doesn't demand it first in order to be eligible to become His.
There was no slander, just a rebuke: “Better is open rebuke than hidden love”.
-—————————————————————————Correction, it is not a rebuke it is a related event as the way some one saw it or wants other people to believe he saw it..
I might tell every one that you took money from the tithe box and tell them i rebuked you for it, that is not a theft nor a rebuke it is just a story of such.
If untrue and I did not like you I might be telling it just to give you a bad rep which would be slander.
Try again.... If you can.
Be very careful FRiend.
As a pretribber, I came across George Ladd’s book, “The Blessed Hope,” many years ago. His “Vocabulary of the Blessed Hope” chapter, made a huge impression on me.
He dealt with the Greek words, “parousia, “epiphaneia,” and “apocalypsis” (the coming, appearing, revelation, of Jesus Christ) extensively, his “vocabulary,” examining their every use in the NT, used interchangeably for the singular second coming at the close of the tribulation.
As to my post, we have George Ladd’s scholarship to thank for it. Ladd, now deceased, was professor of NT History and Biblical Theology at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Paul did not traffic in false sentimentality. He was chosen by Christ. You don’t believe that? Your choice, but I’ll take no part in it.
Scripture is truth.
If you won’t accept what God has to say as an answer, as sufficient, there’s nothing else to go to.
You’re on your own.
Paul did not traffic in false sentimentality. He was chosen by Christ. You don’t believe that? Your choice, but I’ll take no part in it.
Your reply was neither complete nor scriptural.
Not according to Revelation. There is the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead are raised at the end of the universe.
Are you serious??? The word Trinity isn't in the scriptures either but I'll bet you believe in the Trinity...
“The pretrib spin on the marriage of the Lamb, is but another in a long list of inferences they believe “proves” a pretrib rapture. But inferences is not what you need (inferences = passages you believe that “infers” a pretrib rapture), what you need is an actual statement somewhere clearly setting forth your doctrine, setting forth an additional parousia separate from the one Jesus taught in Matt. 24:29-31
Says you...But you admit there's a LONG list of inferences that the rapture is pre-trib...
Something by Paul like this: ‘Jesus taught only one parousia to his disciples on the mount of Olives, behold, I bring a tremendous new revelation, there are two parousias! one before the tribulation, another one after it. To differentiate the two, we will call the first one the RAPTURE.’ Or something to this effect. [Notice, I have ‘rapture’ in caps here]
Here's another inference...When Paul spoke of the 'last trump' he had no clue whatsoever that Jesus would reveal to John 40 YEARS LATER that there would be 7 trumpets blowing...
The point I was making, is pretribs consistently use the word “rapture” for the first of their two events, yet Paul uses the Greek word “parousia” (coming) for it in two of his most important passages on this subject, 1 Thess. 4:15 and 2 Thess. 2:1.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Being near??? Works for me and the Rapture...
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
There's RAPTURE
Note: Paul did NOT use the word “rapture” to describe the first event. Why didn’t he?
Because parousia means to 'come near' which is what Jesus does at the Rapture...
2. Because Paul didn’t believe the event was a different event from Jesus.’ If he believed it was a different event, he would have used a special word to differentiate it from the second event…like calling it the “rapture.” We certainly need a special word to describe such a tremendous event as this.
Now, what I would ask of you, Iscool, if the first event is a different event from the second, as you believe, what IS the word – scripturally - it should be called?
Parousia which means (for Jesus to) come near...And.
Harpazo which means (for Jesus to) catch us up; seize us by force...
And if you will concede that “parousia” (coming) is scripturally the word we should use, the word Paul used in Thessalonians, then, doesn’t this mean you have two parousias? Two comings? A parousia before the tribulation, another one after it?
Yes...One where Jesus 'meets' us in the air and we are caught up and the other where Jesus lands on earth...
“Not according to Revelation. There is the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead are raised at the end of the universe.”
If this is true, then only those who live during the tribulation period could ever be saved. Everyone who is part of the second resurrection is damned, because they will be judged according to their works. It is even called the “resurrection of the wicked”, in Acts 24:15, and the “resurrection of judgement” in John 5:29.
The other, parallel verses that speak of the first resurrection clarify that it includes all believers, 1 Thes. 4:13-17 is probably the best example of that, because it speaks of all believers, both living and dead.
“Here’s another inference...When Paul spoke of the ‘last trump’ he had no clue whatsoever that Jesus would reveal to John 40 YEARS LATER that there would be 7 trumpets blowing...”
That’s a terrible inference. The simple fact that he used the language “last trump” infers that he definitely knew there would be a series of trumpets, with certain prophetic events timed to coincide with them, and that the believers he was speaking to were also familiar with that knowledge.
If that wasn’t the case, then the reference is senseless and superfluous, and would only serve to confuse his audience.
Remember, Revelation may be the only book of pure prophecy in the NT, but John was not the only NT prophet. ALL of the apostles had the gift of prophecy, and it was also common for other disciples and believers to have that gift during this period, which is probably why they were familiar with these terms before John wrote down his Revelation.
“Yes...One where Jesus ‘meets’ us in the air and we are caught up and the other where Jesus lands on earth...”
At least you are honest enough to admit that the rapture belief requires a “third coming” of Christ. Most of the people I’ve discussed this topic with try to worm their way out of that inescapable conclusion.
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