Are you serious??? The word Trinity isn't in the scriptures either but I'll bet you believe in the Trinity...
“The pretrib spin on the marriage of the Lamb, is but another in a long list of inferences they believe “proves” a pretrib rapture. But inferences is not what you need (inferences = passages you believe that “infers” a pretrib rapture), what you need is an actual statement somewhere clearly setting forth your doctrine, setting forth an additional parousia separate from the one Jesus taught in Matt. 24:29-31
Says you...But you admit there's a LONG list of inferences that the rapture is pre-trib...
Something by Paul like this: ‘Jesus taught only one parousia to his disciples on the mount of Olives, behold, I bring a tremendous new revelation, there are two parousias! one before the tribulation, another one after it. To differentiate the two, we will call the first one the RAPTURE.’ Or something to this effect. [Notice, I have ‘rapture’ in caps here]
Here's another inference...When Paul spoke of the 'last trump' he had no clue whatsoever that Jesus would reveal to John 40 YEARS LATER that there would be 7 trumpets blowing...
The point I was making, is pretribs consistently use the word “rapture” for the first of their two events, yet Paul uses the Greek word “parousia” (coming) for it in two of his most important passages on this subject, 1 Thess. 4:15 and 2 Thess. 2:1.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.
Being near??? Works for me and the Rapture...
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
There's RAPTURE
Note: Paul did NOT use the word “rapture” to describe the first event. Why didn’t he?
Because parousia means to 'come near' which is what Jesus does at the Rapture...
2. Because Paul didn’t believe the event was a different event from Jesus.’ If he believed it was a different event, he would have used a special word to differentiate it from the second event…like calling it the “rapture.” We certainly need a special word to describe such a tremendous event as this.
Now, what I would ask of you, Iscool, if the first event is a different event from the second, as you believe, what IS the word – scripturally - it should be called?
Parousia which means (for Jesus to) come near...And.
Harpazo which means (for Jesus to) catch us up; seize us by force...
And if you will concede that “parousia” (coming) is scripturally the word we should use, the word Paul used in Thessalonians, then, doesn’t this mean you have two parousias? Two comings? A parousia before the tribulation, another one after it?
Yes...One where Jesus 'meets' us in the air and we are caught up and the other where Jesus lands on earth...
“Here’s another inference...When Paul spoke of the ‘last trump’ he had no clue whatsoever that Jesus would reveal to John 40 YEARS LATER that there would be 7 trumpets blowing...”
That’s a terrible inference. The simple fact that he used the language “last trump” infers that he definitely knew there would be a series of trumpets, with certain prophetic events timed to coincide with them, and that the believers he was speaking to were also familiar with that knowledge.
If that wasn’t the case, then the reference is senseless and superfluous, and would only serve to confuse his audience.
Remember, Revelation may be the only book of pure prophecy in the NT, but John was not the only NT prophet. ALL of the apostles had the gift of prophecy, and it was also common for other disciples and believers to have that gift during this period, which is probably why they were familiar with these terms before John wrote down his Revelation.
“Yes...One where Jesus ‘meets’ us in the air and we are caught up and the other where Jesus lands on earth...”
At least you are honest enough to admit that the rapture belief requires a “third coming” of Christ. Most of the people I’ve discussed this topic with try to worm their way out of that inescapable conclusion.
Are you serious???
>>Very much so. You said the marriage of the Lamb takes place before the tribulation, you, then, have the burden of proof to produce the scripture in Revelation that actually SAYS THAT. If you can’t produce that scripture, then it must take place where Revelation SAYS it will – Rev. 19.
You admit there’s a LONG list of inferences that the rapture is pre-trib...
>> But that is all they are – inferences. That’s the point. In every one of them pretribs INFER two parousias, two comings. Which is not there at all, they only imagine it there, due to the presuppositions they bring to their Bible. There is really only one parousia, yet they see two everywhere. As if they have bifocals on or something.
Here’s another inference... (the last trump)
>>To INFER that 1 Cor. 15:52 refers to a pre-tribulation rapture, as pretribs all do, when the tribulation is not even mentioned in the passage, now THAT is an inference. Another in that long list of pretrib inferences I was talking about. Makes me wonder if you know what an inference is. If the post-trib sounding of the trumpet in Matt. 24:29-31 isn’t the “last” trump, I don’t what else you’d call it.
Being near??? Works for me and the Rapture...
>>The entire JW fiasco is based on that “come near” you are talking about (“parousia”), when Jesus supposedly came invisibly to them in 1917. Wrong “come near,” of course, but so is yours. The true “come near” is when Jesus “comes near” to us, meeting him on his descent to the earth, 1 Thess. 4, to rule and reign over it for a thousand years. To read a mystical pretrib event into the word “parousia” is…, well, here goes, another inference.
One (parousia) where Jesus ‘meets’ us in the air and we are caught up and the other (parousia) where Jesus lands on earth.
>>You are only making my point here, that pretribs actually believe in two parousias, two second comings of Jesus Christ, when the Bible does not use this terminology at all. The way to get around this, is to propose a “two stage second coming.” But where does Paul set this forth? It ain’t there. In that case, we’ll just have to INFER it, right? Inferences again.
This thread being evidence, with the times of antichrist very close, whether or not we get raptured out of here before the tribulation is becoming more intense by the day. What everybody needs, and you need, is scripture that actually and unequivocally spells out an additional second coming in black and white. And not an inference. Else all you have is a theory.
We DO have it black and white, of course, it’s right there in front of you. No need to infer anything. All you have to do is just believe Jesus (Matt. 24:29-31). Like I said, all these passages you see inferring two second comings, are really talking about the same one Jesus set forth.