Posted on 07/15/2015 5:31:40 AM PDT by Gamecock
Ya know they may not say what you have been told they say...
Amen - the flesh always wants a man to follow.
Jesus says, “Follow Me.”
Amen.
Did you know that Eph. 4:11 is the ONLY verse in ALL of the NT that contains the word translated “pastor” (English Bibles)?
AND IT’S PLURAL, NOT SINGULAR? Many say the correct translation is “pastor-teachers” as the two words appear to be linked.
AND whereever the Gr. word “poimen” (noun: pastor, shepherd) is found in the NT in it’s SINGULAR form - it is referring to the Lord Jesus? “The Good Shepherd..” “The Chief Shepherd...” etc.
AND whereever the VERB form of poimen is found, as something which is DONE, it refers TO THE ELDERS!
Incredible that a vast majority of “Bible believing” Christians have bought into a carnal religious system that places men where God never meant them to be with absolutely no scriptural basis for doing so. The arguments those who put forth who support this system are so weak and feeble, they’d themselves would thoroughly reject any other theological arguments by others wholeheartedly that had a similar foundation.
But the pastor system is an absolute necessity for the survival and promotion of any organization of man.
“The Latin speaking bishops at Carthage may have had something to do with setting the canon, but happily in those years the Latins and Greeks were one.”
Indeed they did, though we always viewed that council at Carthage in 397 as a nice effort by our country cousins....except for the Revelations book. I hear we have a dusty copy of that one on a top shelf somewhere over at the church! :)
It was nice to be One. Maybe we will be again soon. Next Year in Constantinople?!
Funny. That’s the way all the Catholics I know talked.
“Seeing the Church Fathers, had exactly the same scriptural base that we do today.”
Oh, but that’s not true at all. One of the greatest Fathers, +Athanasius of Alexandria, was dead before the nearest canon to what you folks use was even established. Same goes for +Justin Martyr, +Ireneaus of Lyon. +Basil the Great, +Gregory of Nyssa, the later two dying within just a few years from the date of the Council of carthage. The list is longer, btw.
Scripture will do. God's word trumps all of them. Besides, God said He would never tempt us so temptations do NOT come from God.
The Scripture was still in existance and they had that whether it had the Catholic church stamp of approval or not.
Let's ask the angel that told John to write to the 7 Catholic churches in Asia.
While others ...
... will be tempted to read (and study) the Bible; like the NOBLE Bereans did.
I'll give you some GOOD ones first:
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18
• Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
The scriptures were written and available
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| Bible Research > Canon > New Testament |
Italic type indicates that the writer either does not mention the book or expressed some doubt about the status of the book.
| Athanasius (b. 296) |
Origen (b. 185) |
Irenaeus (b. 130) |
Marcion* (b. 85) |
| Matthew | Matthew | Matthew | |
| Mark | Mark | Mark | |
| Luke | Luke | Luke | Luke |
| John | John | John | |
| Acts | Acts | Acts | |
| Romans | Romans | Romans | Romans |
| 1 Corinthians | 1 Corinthians | 1 Corinthians | 1 Corinthians |
| 2 Corinthians | 2 Corinthians | 2 Corinthians | 2 Corinthians |
| Galatians | Galatians | Galatians | Galatians |
| Ephesians | Ephesians | Ephesians | Ephesians |
| Philippians | Philippians | Philippians | Philippians |
| Colossians | Colossians | Colossians | Colossians |
| 1 Thessalonians | 1 Thessalonians | 1 Thessalonians | 1 Thessalonians |
| 2 Thessalonians | 2 Thessalonians | 2 Thessalonians | 2 Thessalonians |
| 1 Timothy | 1 Timothy | 1 Timothy | |
| 2 Timothy | 2 Timothy | 2 Timothy | |
| Titus | Titus | Titus | |
| Philemon | Philemon | Philemon | Philemon |
| Hebrews | Hebrews | Hebrews | |
| James | James | James | |
| 1 Peter | 1 Peter | 1 Peter | |
| 2 Peter | 2 Peter | 2 Peter | |
| 1 John | 1 John | 1 John | |
| 2 John | 2 John | 2 John | |
| 3 John | 3 John | 3 John | |
| Jude | Jude | Jude | |
| Revelation** | Revelation | Revelation |
* Marcion's views were peculiar to his sect. He was aware of the fact that many of the other books were read as scripture in most churches.
** The Revelation of John was first received and then rejected by many churches in Asia Minor.
| Bible Research > Canon > New Testament |
Yup, hundreds of them. BTW, I'm not a Latin, but I most certainly am a member of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as my family has been for at least 1800 years!
Where did your list come from? The links don’t work.
There is no “proper form,” that’s why the New Testament and the apostles are so vague on the subject. The church adapts itself to differing cultures, adaptability is one of the great things about christianity.
If it was such a critical question to have a single form, it would have been addressed. The early church saw two influences in this issue. One was the more “elder” oriented Jewish tradition of the Beth Knesset, the other the hierarchical traditions and lesser educated state of the gentile world.
As the church moved into the gentile world an episcopal form was probably an excellent choice. At that point, the church was drawing millions of illiterate believers (which also explains the rise of icons as educational tools which morphed later into worship materials, which in turn evolved into objects which unfortunately became widely misunderstood as having inherent powers).
But we don’t live in that world, the pattern of a single or a small handful of educated specialists implies that the general populations do not have the Holy Spirit informing them, that they have no easy access to the scriptures or scholarship and that their understanding is irrelevant. Now that the laity is often well informed, often can be well inform, the culture of the church is different.
Some people grow in faith through the Orthodox or Catholic or Anglican forms, others thrive in Presbyterian environments, and still others in Congregational forms.
Being one in Christ does not mean being one in style. Variety can be our friend.
Thank-you. So as you can see, it was GREEKS who determined the canon of scripture....
The story behind Hebrews and Revelations being part of the Canon is an interesting one. Apparently it came about as part of a deal between the Latin Church and the Eastern, Greek speaking Churches, one for the other.
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