Posted on 07/07/2015 10:33:57 PM PDT by Morgana
I have never heard a Catholic say this and I would definitely not say it myself. Catholics might say that Protestants are in error or even heretical but they are generally recognized as fellow Christians.
I first misread that as "you can pray your way into heaven".
I don't know; maybe so.
10 Things Evangelicals Are Tired of Hearing Catholics Say
Meaning a sophist mostly valid objections into strawmen almost no one posts, or reiterating refuted polemics.
Looking affectionately at family photos is simply not what the objection is to. Elizabeth Giddens has to know that, and thus she is being dishonest. And Morgana should be ashamed to post such a poor polemic. Instead, what we protest against is Catholics engaging in toward created beings what Scripture describes as worship. Indeed, one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue in adulation and praising the unseen entity it represented in the unseen world, with attributes, glory and titles being ascribed to them which are never done so to created beings in Scripture (except to false gods). Including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them. And beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them. Which would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine by playing word games they avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship. Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference? <img alt="" src="http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/images/moses.gif" border="0"> <img alt="" src="http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/images/mary.gif" border="0"> Instead they should do what Mary and every believer in every prayer to Heaven did (and I should do more of), which was to pray directly to the Lord, not secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.
Mere sophistry, as there is no difference between asking and beseeching an unseen entity in Heaven for aid and praying to them. Since Christ is man's (only) Heavenly intercessor between God and man (1Tim. 2:5) then RCs could say they do not pray to Christ, but only ask Him to intercede for them. Moreover, Catholics do ask Mary to do more than to pray for them, as they ascribe power to her to perform other actions in response to devotion to her. The FACT is that out of the over 200 prayers to Heaven which the Holy Spirit records in Scripture, not a single one is to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, except by pagans. And a Protestant asking their deceased grandparent/parent to watch over them is also inconsistent with Scripture, thus invoking Protestant aberrations does not justify Catholic ones.
Very few Prots hold that believers are not conscious and with the Lord in Heaven commencing at death, the latter of which Rome denies to most, but the power to hear virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them is an ability only God is shown having. Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 do NOT teach that created beings hear prayer, only that they offered pray to God as a memorial before Divine judgment is poured out in the day of the Lord. Whether believers in glory can hear prayer or not, only God is sanctioned as being the direct object of prayer, to whom believers have direct access to by the sinless shed blood of Christ, (Heb. 10:19) who alone is set forth as the immediate all-sufficient Heavenly intercessor. (Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; Heb. 7:25) To the glory of the Father. |
What saith the Scriptures? (Rm. 4:3; 11:2; Gal. 4:30) Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:6) |
||
1 |
Prayers in Scripture addressed to God in Heaven |
Over 200 prayers, besides instruction on prayer to Heaven. (Our Father who art in Heaven, not Out Mother.) |
|
Prayers in Scripture addressed to any created beings in Heaven |
ZERO prayers or examples, or in instruction on prayer to Heaven |
2 |
Examples or teaching showing God being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to Him in Heaven. |
Multiple. I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee.. (2 Kings 20:5; cf. Ps. 65:2; 66:19,20; Lk 1:13) |
|
Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to hear and respond to prayer from earth addressed to them in Heaven. |
ZERO. Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) does not constitute this ability, which is unique to God. |
3 |
Examples or teaching showing God able to personally communicate with man from Heaven. |
Many. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. (2 Corinthians 12:8-9) |
|
Examples or teaching showing created beings being able to converse with man from Heaven. |
ZERO. From what I see, all two-way communication required both created beings to somehow be consciously operating in the same realm. |
4 |
Examples or teaching Christ as being the heavenly intercessor between man and God. |
Many. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:18) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25) |
|
Examples or teaching any as created beings as heavenly intercessor between man and God. |
ZERO. See under 2 above. |
The objection is not to Mary being important, but to the supererogation of adulation given to Mary, such as which is only shown being given to God. Rather than being a sinless almost almighty demigoddess, to whom many things are ascribed which are only shown being said of God/Christ (see here), the holy spiritual Mary of Scripture is never prayed to or asked by others to intercede, and little is said of her, while the Holy Spirit gives far more press to the sacrificial labor of Paul in birthing multitudes of souls into the body of Christ and disciplining them. Meanwhile, Israel is also said to have brought forth Christ, (Rm. 9:4,5) and the Lord said all who did the will of His Father, as Mary did, were His mothers. (Mt. 12:49) In addition, among mothers, of Jael it is also said, Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. (Judges 5:24)
Actually, Protestantism has historically contended for Biblical Truths we both hold to, while it is utterly false that every single tradition in the Catholic Church has biblical roots, praying to created beings in Heaven being just one of them. Nor does the veracity of RC teaching rest upon the weight of Scriptural evidence, but upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility. In addition, the premise that Jesus was the founder of the church of Rome is manifestly false, as the latter is a critical deformation of the NT church (see here), though a few in it are part of the One True Church. That being the body of Christ, as that only 100% consists of only true believers, unlike the visible church in which they express their faith as do tares.
All that Liz drums up does not support what she says, as for one, the fact is that nowhere in Scripture can she find even one place in which there was a special class of believers distinctively titled priests (hiereus) versus presbuteros/episkopos (senior/superintendent) which refers to those in one office. (Titus 1:5-7) Distinctively calling NT pastors priests (from old English as "preost") was a post NT development, due to imposed functional equivalence, wrongly supposing NT presbyteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as a primary function, and is defended by the use of an etymological fallacy See here. Scripture nowhere says to confess sins to Catholic priests, and while in Ja. 5:14 it is elders who are to be called to for intercession, for God can show mercy to those being chastened for sins of ignorance, yet this was only in the case of one being infirm. Yet in Catholicism's Last Rites, which is based on this, is usually a precursor of death. Meanwhile Ja. 5:16 which is what Liz cites, actually refers to all believers, and teaches a righteous believer like Elijah has power to bind and loose. Thus Liz only has lies for an argument.
Which is a mere assertion, not an argument, while in reality Rome is cultic, as its basis for veracity is not the weight of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power under which the NT church began, in dissent from the historical magisterium which Rome presents as infallible in her case. In-stead, the basis for the veracity of RC teachings is the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual formulaic magisterial infallibility, which is unseen and unnecessary in Scripture, and never promised. Rome even teaches that one cannot even assuredly know what Scripture consists of and means apart from dependence upon here, yet the church began because common souls discerned both men and writings of God as being so. It is cults which present their leadership as superior to Scripture, and require assent of faith, both of which Rome does, under the fallacious premise that God's word can only consist of and mean what she says in any conflict.
Which is another mere assertion, and which is contrary to the evidence. Catholicism is so different than the NT church that it is basically invisible in Scripture, from formal justification via one's own holiness, and becoming good enough to enter glory through postmortem suffering commencing at death, the lack of a perpetuated Petrine papacy, to the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, to the distinctive sacerdotal priesthood, to praying to created beings in Heaven, to basically required clerical celibacy and her priesthood, etc.
Which parroted propaganda does hurt, that of the attempted polemic by Liz. In reality most of what we hold as Scripture was already established as being so before the church began, which thus began upon Scriptural substantiation, while all of the NT was written and began to be circulated by the beginning of the 2nd century. And while most of the Bible was largely established early on (essentially due to their unique Heavenly qualities and affirmation), the status of the apocryphal books and some NT ones were subject to doubt and scholarly disagreement down through centuries and right into Trent. Which issued the first indisputable (for Roman Catholics) definition of the canon after the death of Luther. The latter actually had scholarly RC company in his rejection of certain books as Scripture proper, yet he included them in his translation, in a separate section as per ancient tradition, and there simply was no infallible canon for Luther to remove books from! See here on this issue, by God's grace. In addition, Rome saw unhindered access to reading Scripture as dangerous and detrimental and thus much hindered it, in contrast to earlier times or modern, while in thee latter she promotes liberal revisionism, which impugns the authority of Scripture. See here. Either way, the devil much has his way.
Actually, where do we see Prots saying this today? But no, there was no misconception, as Tetzel preached, You should know that all who confess and in penance put alms into the coffer according to the counsel of the confessor, will obtain complete remission of all their sins... Why are you then standing there? Run for the salvation of your souls! Be as careful and concerned for the salvation of your souls as you are for your temporal goods, which you seek both day and night. http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=4207; Source of English translation (sermon was originally written in Latin): Hans J. Hillerbrand, ed., The Reformation: A Narrative History Related by Contemporary Observers and Participants. New York, 1964 And which enjoyed the implicit sanction of the pope. |
Indeed.
Heb 10:25
I'll ping you when someone says it again. Usually, it's one of the "Vatican II screwed everything up" types.
Paul was personally instructed by a Witness to those events, One Who does not lie.
Usually the insults to other religious practices are couched as, “Catholics are the only real church of Christ”, or, “Why don’t other people practice worshipping Jesus”, garbage like that.
Me too ...and indeed if my Savior can not watch over me.. then I believe in vain ...
Lord, why do you speak to them in parables ??? (Mat 13:10)
Ten things that Protestants hate? The same old, lame, simplistic Catholic apologetic arguments to these ten valid concerns.
That's where protestants came from...1,600 years after the fact.
Whose sins that you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins that you retain, they are retained.....remember that part?????
You don't, you confess and profess sorrow for your sins to Christ THROUGH a priest...Christ does the forgiving, you did not offend the priest.....
The formula of absolution used in the Latin Church expresses the essential elements of this sacrament: The Father of mercies is the source of all forgiveness. He effects the reconciliation of sinners through the Passover of his Son and the gift of his Spirit, through the prayer and ministry of the Church:
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and the resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
One thing they NEVER tire of hearing:
Oh?
The Bible does not indicate this.
She was TOLD what was going to happen to her.
She accepted her fate; what ELSE could she do?
If you do NOT 'pray to' her; then how does your ASK get to her in basket?
- Foundation Marypages -
Our foundation has the objective to develop, expand and maintain the Marypages website to promote the Roman Catholic belief and especially the Devotion of Our Blessed Mother, Mary.
|
If your donation is 50 Euro or higher, then you will also receive a beautiful light blue rosary from Lourdes. In the rosary is a little holy water from the source in Lourdes.
Any extra income generated will be donated to compassionate projects with a Catholic basis. We are registered at the Chamber of Commerce Flevoland under number 39100629.
To make a donation, please click the button below.
God bless you.
Get your history straight: That is a FACT that indulgences were PAID for; which occurred BEFORE the Protestant Reformation.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.