Posted on 07/02/2015 4:01:06 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
... Findings from PRRI's American Values Atlas, which draws on 40,000 interviews among a random sample of Americans, provides the most in-depth portrait to date of attitudes on same-sex marriage by religious affiliation. ...
All Americans [percentages]...
Strongly Favor 25 Favor 29 Oppose 18 Strongly Oppose 20
White Evangelical Protestant [Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Church of Christ]...
Strongly Favor 10 Favor 18 Oppose 27 Strongly Oppose 39
White Mainline Protestant [Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Church of Christ]...
Strongly Favor 28 Favor 34 Oppose 16 Strongly Oppose 14
...
(Excerpt) Read more at publicreligion.org ...
I think we’ve seen that that is questionable.
Define “very Catholic”.
Despite the denials on this thread by many, I actually believe that this is correct.
For my fellow Catholics who don't live in very socially conservative areas, survey the cars in your parish parking lot the next time you go to Mass:
Around here in the DC area, I see far too many of them. Even when I go to Mass at the Shrine (Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception).
And because I am asking you to survey your church's parking lot (and it isn't Easter or Christmas), I'm obviously talking about "faithful, practicing Catholics"
Consider these comments from Cardinal Dolan a couple of years ago:
The cardinal said he gave the Holy Father "a standing ovation" for criticizing an approach to the faith that focuses only on issues like abortion, "gay marriage" and contraception.
"I don't know if it's so much the Church is obsessed with that, it's the world that's obsessed with those things," Cardinal Dolan noted, adding that it is "rare" for him to preach on these issues. (emphasis added)
Or consider the rationale given for opposing Obamacare's mandate:
"Thus, to say it again, the wide ecumenical and inter-religious outrage over the HHS mandate is not about its coverage of chemical contraceptives and abortion-inducing drugs -- in spite of the well-oiled mantra from our opponents -- but upon the raw presumption of a bureau of the federal government to define a church's minister, ministry, message, and meaning," (emphasis added)
Note that I'm not trying to beat up on Cardinal Dolan (even though he deserves it)...he is just in the position of being in the media a lot more than most other bishops. Your bishop may be different...your bishop may faithfully teach the whole gospel, including the tough parts, but think about how many simply don't.
Recall the disappointing statements made by the vast majority of bishops in the wake of the Supreme Court sodomite marriage decision. Sure, we found some good ones (e.g., Bishop Tobin, Jarrell, and Strickland), but they were in the distinct minority.
How many of you remember what happened to Archbishop Nienstedt back in 2010 when he mailed out DVDs espousing Church teaching on marriage to Catholics in Minnesota...over 3,000 of those DVDs were mailed back to him...most with obsene messages attached to the DVDs. Those DVDs weren't mailed to the population at large: they were married to currently practicing Catholics in his diocese. Of course, that wasn't the opening salvo. Earlier, he prohibited the "LGBT" Masses at the notorious St Joan of Arc parish in Minneapolis. And for that, he was utterly skewered. Not only by the media, but by Catholics in his own diocese. How did they get that way? One account says:
It wasn't always this way. Archbishop John Roach and his successor, Harry Flynn, led a notably progressive, inclusive, post-Vatican II archdiocese, one balanced on even-handed discussion.
In other words, his two predecessors were typical bishops and let things spin out of control. When Nienstedt came into town, he yanked back the reins, hard. And the horse bolted.
Here's the bottom line: for too many years (and including today), the majority of the shepherds in this country have had a "laissez-faire" attitude toward morality...and have taught that "laissez-faire" attitude to their flock -- either explicitly or through ommission. And the flock has reacted to those teachings (or lack thereof).
What the Church teaches on homosexuality and homosexual acts is very clear and unambiguous. If you want a refresher, glance through this document: CDF, Letter Homosexualitatis problema (1986). It hasn't changed since that time.
I say the above not out of a desire to tear down the Church, but because it can't be fixed unless it is diagnosed. Denial of the problem won't fix it...it will just allow it to further metastasize. (what do they say, "denial is not a river in Egypt"?)
I don't agree with their interpretation of scripture, but I'll give them their due. They peacefully practice what they preach.
Raised in the Catholic church Confirmed and married in the RC regular attenders Part of the music team and actively participate in the services
The mom of the family (the kids are in their 40’s) actually has keys to the building so she can own and close as needed
Oh and BTW they are also pro abort. And democrats and members in very good standing of their parish
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. -- Galatians 1:8,9
Accursed for denying the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel.
A real Catholic does not believe in make-believe “marriage”. End of story.
Now there are some that call themselves Catholic that do not follow the faith, and the teachings of the faith, exactly like there are protestants that are hypocrites that do not follow the words of Christ. Any protestant or Catholic that supports the democrat party will bust hell wide open when they leave this earth and the same thing applies to any one that supports baby killing and sodomite “marriage”
“When someone says they’re Catholic, BUT.....
They’re not Catholic”.
Archbishop Fulton Sheen
Thanks for your support.
I was raised in WNY, which I have been assured by other FRoman Catholics on this board, is a notriously liberal, corrupt Catholic diocese.
Taking a look at Buffalo politics and those who are Catholic in it, reinforce that view.
I live in a much more conservative area now and am still amazed at the liberal attitude by Catholics here, both in conversation personally and by observing the bumper stickers on the cars outside the local RCC Saturday evening and Sunday morning.
My observations are not simply parroting “anti-Catholic” talking points but from real life experience. with actual interactions with Catholics I meet and talk to.
I’m sorry that that displeases so many here, but denying it doesn’t change anything.
FWIW, I HAVE met Catholics who are conservative and vote that way, and I can count them on one hand.
How many of them has the Catholic church ex- communicated?
And saying they’ve ex- communicated themselves is a cop out. Your church doesn’t treat them like that and as long as your church owns thme, they’re yours if you call yourself Catholic, as you are required to be in subjection to your church leadership.
Your own personal opinion of the CCC or magisterium or the popes actions and words notwithstanding.
There is a whole lot of corruption these days (decades). That quote from Catherine of Siena pertains horribly today. I'm sure you've read the oft-quoted passage from Our Lady of Akita as well. Same thing.
Here's one that was stated by Cardinal Ratzinger back in 1970:
Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge—a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, she will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly she will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Alongside this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize her true center and experience the sacraments again as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.
The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystalization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed. One may predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism of the eveof the French Revolution—when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain9—to the renewal of the nineteenth century. But when the trial this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.
And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already with Gobel, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.
Joseph Ratzinger, Faith and the Future, Ignatius:2006,Chapter 5
There are, from multiple sources, some very, very hard times ahead.
My observations are not simply parroting “anti-Catholic” talking points…
I haven't taken them as such. There are those who do so; I haven't counted you among them.
Here’s a related article that I found to be VERY interesting:
Will The Protestant House of Cards Come Tumbling Down?
http://catholicozarks.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-protestant-house-of-cards.html
I appreciate that.
I think God is drawing the line in the sand and forcing people to choose sides.
By yheir fruit you WILL know them whatever words come out of their mouths.
Due to poor internet where I am, I cannot acces your link.
However, inasmuch as any “Protestant” church abandons the word of God, it too will fail and can no longer consider itself the body of Christ.
As far as I know there is very little difference in doctrine except most Baptist churches are affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) but there are several other much smaller conventions in the US. A somewhat more liberal (for lack of a better description) is the American Baptist Church USA, and it's the only one I can think of offhand. My family and I were members of an independent Baptist church for many years. But when moved to a small town in north GA the only Baptist churches anywhere within reasonable driving distance are SBC, but the basic doctrines and worship are virtually identical to that of the SBC.
One exception is that a certain % of tithes and free will offerings to local churches go to the SBC mission board to support SBC seminaries and and thousands of foreign missionaries serving all around the globe. The large independent Baptist church that we had attended for decades before moving sent out and supported it's own foreign missionaries. Around 30 IIRC, and that includes my own daughter.
I have heard that the American Baptist doctrines and practices are similar to those of the SBC on paper, but in actual practice the ABCUSA is considerably more liberal (again for lack of a better description).
That's a forgone conclusion, go ahead and count the "unaffiliated" in the apostate column. That description includes advocates of every non-scriptural doctrine and practice that Satan's henchmen can come up with, and there are many more of those than I can name.
I wrote; "but the basic doctrines and worship are virtually identical to that of the SBC".
I should have written; "but the basic doctrines and worship of both SBC and independent Baptist churches are virtually identical."
So they are active Novus Ordites, many of which don’t follow/believe Catholic teaching (ie. not “VERY Catholic”).
I agree with the polls as well. If I’m not mistaken that percentage is also pretty close to the percentage of “Catholics” who don’t believe in the Real Presence.
“...inasmuch as any “Protestant” church abandons the word of God, it too will fail...”
__________________________________
I agree and that is true for any Christian. Here is the article metmom...just for you. :-)
Will The Protestant House of Cards Come Tumbling Down? by Shane Schaetzel.
By now we should all know what happened last week on June 26, 2015, a date that will live in infamy. Five Supreme Court justices violated their oath of office and invented a ‘right’ out of thin air, overturning constitutional amendments in various states, which were voted on by the people with overwhelming majorities, imposing upon every state and all Americans, same-sex ‘marriage’ as the law of the land. The implications of this are staggering.
The minority opinions written by the dissenting justices were no less historic. They heralded the end of American democracy and the rise of persecution for Christians who oppose this judicial fiat. The news media and Internet are filled with commentary on this decision, so I will not go into it in detail here. I will say only this. This third branch of government, headed by the United States Supreme Court, has historically been the most tyrannical branch of government in the failed American political system. It was this branch of government that gave us Dred Scott; a horribly bad decision that contributed greatly to the first fall of the American Republic in what is commonly called the Civil War. It was this branch of government that also gave us Engel v. Vitale, and Abington School District v. Schempp, which made prayer and reading the Bible in public schools illegal. It was this branch of government that gave us Roe v. Wade, which usurped state laws and constitutions, making the wholesale slaughter of unborn babies a ‘protected legal right’. Fifty-seven million dead babies later, the Supreme Court of the United States gives us this.
In Obergefell v. Hodges, the Supreme Court proved once again that there are no limits to the tyranny of moral relativism it can impose on the American people. In regards to the failed American political system I will say only this. King George III in all of his imperial majesty could have never imagined a tyranny like this. What Americans have created by their own hands is a thousand times worse than any tyranny England ever dished out on the original thirteen colonies. Our state constitutions have just been nullified. Our state laws have just been obliterated. The Supreme Court of the United States has just demonstrated, yet once again, that it will erase any law, overturn any vote, nullify any democratic process, and thwart the will of any people that five of their nine justices don’t particularly like. King George III was a gentle and kind ruler compared to this. That however, is not what this essay is about. I will leave the failed American political system to my fellow countrymen. If they wish to try to save it with another constitutional convention (Convention of States), than let them rise up and do it. I will support them. If they wish to let it crumble into the ash heap of history’s failed ideas, that too is their choice. I will not stop them. For this essay, however, I have something much more significant to address.
As a former Evangelical Protestant, I can attest that there are certain Protestant individuals who will never cave in to the homosexualist agenda. I can think of my parents and sisters as examples of this. They will never cave in. I have many Evangelical friends who will never cave in either. My question is; where will they go however, when there are no Evangelical churches left to support them in this? For now, most of them are safe, but not for much longer.
(Reuters) — Evangelicals are starting to change their minds about gay marriage. In recent months, three large evangelical churches — EastLakeCommunity Church in Seattle, Washington, GracePointe Church in Nashville, Tennessee, and City Church in San Francisco, California — have announced that they no longer believe all same-sex relationships are sinful. Leading evangelical ethicist David Gushee changed his position on the issue in a landmark speech last fall, and celebrated pastor Campolo did the same in a statement on his website earlier this month.
This new pro-gay movement among evangelicals is still a minority, and staunch conservatives have been pushing back. But bit by bit, the number of American evangelicals who support marriage equality continues to rise... read more
You see, Protestantism (for the most part) has had it pretty good for the last five-hundred years since its birth in the sixteenth century. Granted it had a few bouts with the Catholic Church in those early years, but even then, it was supported by a number of governments in Northern Europe. In the English colonies of America, Protestantism enjoyed the support of the state. By the time the United States was founded, Protestantism enjoyed primacy among all religions in North America. The freedoms Protestants have enjoyed under the American political system have allowed for them a great deal of luxury. Schism into multiple sects has always been the primary way Protestants dealt with differences over doctrine and practise. In America, such schisms were so easily accomplished, without state intervention, that literally thousands of denominations and sects have arisen on the North American continent. In all of this however, Protestantism has never encountered a real and serious heresy. Oh sure, there have been little heresies that have arisen here and there, but Protestants mainly deal with this through schism. Some groups have even broken away from Protestantism entirely, but still nothing in the way of real and serious heresy — until now. When I say real and serious heresy, I’m talking about a cultural heresy that is backed by the full weight and authority of the state, resulting in forms of persecution (mild to severe) of those who do not comply. The United States of America, through the third branch of its failed government (the Supreme Court) has created the legal precedence necessary for such a serious heresy to result in the persecution of those who refuse to comply. The heresy is same-sex ‘marriage’ and those who refuse to go along with the lie will soon find themselves at the mercy of the state. The heresy has become a popular one in society too, so Christians, who refuse to comply with it, will find no sympathy from the general public. As a result, some Evangelical churches are beginning to cave in. We’ve seen this among mainline Protestant churches for a long time. They caved into the homosexualist agenda long ago, before there was any public pressure to do so. Many Catholics assumed, perhaps falsely, that no matter what, the Evangelicals will stand with us against the homosexualist agenda. It now appears that we were wrong. The Evangelical mega-churches are falling very quickly now, and I suspect we may see this increase at an exponential rate as persecution ramps up in the months and years ahead.
I am now witnessing this even in conservative Greene County Missouri, as small pockets of Evangelicals are starting to come out in favour of same-sex marriage. Granted, there will always be individual Evangelicals who will never sign on to this, just as there have always been individual mainline Protestants who have refused to cave in. In years past, we saw how these individual mainline Protestants were able to hang together, by breaking with their mainline Protestant denominations, and starting their own offshoots. The Anglican Church in North America serves as one excellent example of this. By breaking with The Episcopal Church of the United States, and the Anglican Church of Canada, individual Anglicans were able to resist the homosexualist agenda, break with their former denominations (schism), and regroup under a new denomination of their own making. This has worked well for them, for now, but I should point out here that Anglicans are a little different than Evangelicals. Anglicans are steeped in liturgical tradition and heritage. It is something that binds them together naturally and organically. This gives them an extra layer of something they hold in common, allowing them to easily unify not just around doctrine, but around tradition as well. For the most part, Evangelicals just don’t have this.
Evangelicalism is built primarily around doctrine alone. Its traditions are fluid and relatively new. In many ways, its worship services are often indistinguishable from a Christian music concert, which one can see in any auditorium. When the government comes to take Evangelical church buildings away unless they comply, and it will, what will they do? This will be the first time Protestantism has ever faced any real persecution in North America. Indeed, aside from its bouts with Catholicism it had early on in Europe, this is the first time Protestantism has had to face any kind of real persecution — ever! Many of these Evangelical mega-churches will cave in. Many Evangelicals will be forced to go underground, and worship as small groups in their homes. What will happen to Evangelicalism then? Without one mega-church pastor to hold them together doctrinally, and without any kind of liturgy or sacraments to bind them together traditionally, what will become of Evangelicalism? Can we expect them to deviate even further on doctrinal issues? Will each small-group become a denomination unto itself? Will Evangelicalism just devolve into some kind of Christianised Individualism? I really don’t know the answer to these questions.
What I do know is this. Catholic Christianity will survive this, because we have survived many persecutions before, far worse than this one. We’ve endured the wrath of Pagan Rome, the Arians, the Muslim Jihadists, Protestant kings and queens, the Communists, the Nazis and now this. They may reduce our numbers. They may cause many apostasies. (Lord knows there are many Catholics more than willing to go, and have already left in heart.) They may take our properties. They may even put us into prison. We, however, have seen all this before. We will outlive them. We will bury their failed system like we buried the once great Roman Empire. Catholic Christianity will not only survive, but it will once again be victorious. Just as it always has throughout history. The Rock of Saint Peter is littered with the hulls of many vessels that have shipwrecked on it. Each had its own captain; Caesar, Arius, Mohammed, Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, etc. They’re all gone now, but the Catholic Church still remains, the Rock of Saint Peter stands tall.
My own decision to leave Protestantism and become Catholic was based on what all of Protestantism is about to undergo. My primary reason for becoming Catholic was over the issue of authority. As I studied to become an Evangelical pastor, it occurred to me that Protestantism has no real authority structure other than what Protestants create by their own hands. They cannot agree with each other, so they literally have hundreds of various authority structures. This should be as no surprise to us. For Protestantism itself was founded in the sixteenth century on a ‘personal interpretation of Scripture’ (Sola Scriptura) that allowed them to reject the historically established authority of the pope and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. This in turn led to many reinterpretations over the centuries, resulting in literally thousands of Protestant denominations, affiliations and individual sects. Without any real absolute authority to firmly established doctrine and interpretation of Scripture, what will become of Protestantism in the face of real heresy and real persecution for not following that heresy? Only history will be able to answer that question. For now, however, we are beginning to see the Evangelical mega-churches fall like dominoes. How it ends nobody knows. One thing is certain though. We shall all find out within our lifetimes — in the very near future.
Whatever you call it they are very active members of good standing in their parish
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