Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.
Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.
There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.
Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." -- Heb 10:11–14
The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.
This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.
The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.
This is not the gospel.
Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.
But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.
1271(LINK) Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
"Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."
In the most practical sense, we're saying you are a real Christian and a member of Christ's church, and are rightly regarded as a brother in Christ.
We're not asking you for dues, counting you in the census numbers, or claiming you as a juridical subject.
I just used this as another example of the multiple ways we use the terms "Church" and "Catholic." It can cause untold confusion if you're not experienced enough with the lingo to catch the meaning by context.
No religious imperialism was intended. Rightly understood, it should be seen as it was intended, as an acknowledgement of brotherhood.
There can't be salvation without forgiveness. When God forgives a person, they are saved.
In people to people interactions thiugh, are you saying then that a person must forgive everyone who ever offended them before they can be saved?
Are we required to clean up our act first before we get saved in order to get saved? Is that what Catholicism teaches?
Or do we get saved and then God cleans up our act for us, in us, and through the work of the Holy Spirit in us?
Do you think it's possible for someone to forgive EVERY SINGLE offense done against them? What if they miss some cause they forgot about it? Were they not saved after all when they thought they were?
There is your answer to 'why' he didn't have the loyal Disciples run after them and plead with them the deeper meaning than cannibalistic foolishness thoughts. They were not among the ones God was drawing to Jesus. Those who left were like the seed which sprang up quickly but in the heat of the day withered away because they had no root in them. Sadly, The Catholic Church has used the heresy fabricated by twisting the meaning of the John passage to wither away hundreds of millions!
You are being too legalistic. What is in question is do you harbor malice in you heart so that you refuse to forgive. It is Jesus who said that we need to forgive other IF we are to be forgiven. This is his condition.
If. communion were for the already saved, that means they had the life of Jesus in them BEFORE they partook, but other Catholics tell us that it’s the partaking that gives life.
Which is it?
Does partaking alone give life? If so, how can anyone be saved and eligible to partake before they partake?
The Catholic twist on the lesson is The Condition. And without a whole volume of such ‘catholic traditions there would be no work or power for the nicolaitan gaggle in Rome.
Yes, those who would not believe his words that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. They said, "This is hard; who can accept it?" And they returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
Like Peter, I believe Jesus has the words of eternal life and is the Holy One of God. I will therefore accept what he tells me, as he tells me. What say you?
What say !? ... May God have Mercy on the souls of those who seeing do not see and hearing do not hear. May God lift the blinders with the Rapture of His Spiritual Church so that Catholics will call out to Him, finally, without the pagan rites and blasphemous worshipping of that which cannot give Eternal Life. May the self deception which is hallmark of catholicism be swept away with the Coming of Jesus fro His Bride.
*I’M*. being too legalistic?
Coming from a Catholic?????
Forgive me for finding that beyond ironic.
Catholics are telling me about all the hoops people have to jump through in order to get saved and stay saved, and I’m stating that it’s simply by faith alone.
I’M not the legalistic one here.
Why, didn’t you know? Catholicism has it both ways, that way they never contradict themselves. It is a religion renewing the most odious pagan rites, for ‘modern minds’. The current head of it seeks to spread the paganism to all other religions, so all are as lost as todays Catholic faithful who believe they must follow the salvation trail to obtain salvation, rather than accept the immediate Grace in Christ Jesus and be born again, born from above. Idolatry, cannibalizing the central god of their religion, a goddess mother to whom they plead for mediatrix saving grace? Scraments which are required for salvation, beyond believe and be saved? Yes, it is a pagan religion with the modern flair of satanic mockery toward Jesus The Christ and His once for all forever Propitiatory Sacrifice of His perfect blood shed from His sinless body for the Salvation of mankind.
Go for the juggler ...
I tried the gentle approach in #564; we’ll see.
The catholic church teaches that Jesus dying once for all forever on the Cross did not propitiate all of a man's sins and that some are left to be dealt with by the dead or their relatives and others doing penance for them in Purgatory.
The jesus of Catholicism has a goddess mother who helps administer the graces of the catholic jesus, as mediatrix.
The catholic jesus needs the intermediaries of catholic priests to administer sacraments in order for the congregant to eventually obtain salvation ... maybe.
Thus the jesus of Catholicism is not the same Jesus of The Bible or of Christianity. But the jesus of Catholicism is an excellent look-alike, and no one would know the rest of the truth about the catholic jesus if they took only the Nicene Creed as the whole truth.
Such is the system of Catholicism, partial truth until you've been indoctrinated sufficiently. The catholic church insists that a person is not born from above by the means Jesus of the Bible proclaimed; not by faith alone is the Grace of God extended to the sinner, but by also by every sacrament of the catholic religion. You must be sacramentally caught up to receive the grace of the catholic salvation.
I find it aggravating to have to deal over and over again with non-Catholics "telling me" what *I* believe, when so much of it is so flabbergastingly misstated that it's unrecognizable as Catholicism.
Don't tell me what *I* believe. You haven't the competence. Tell me what *you* believe.
Your run-down ofCatholic doctrines and practices is hard to respond to unless I know what we have in common. I know we have the Bible in common and I was wondering about the Creed.
This is for clarification's sake. I'm interested in what you believe.
Unlike the catholicism religion, I believe I am saved by my faithe in Jesus The Christ as my Savior and Lord. This is a moment in time Jesus called being born from above. I have been born from above by His spirit and His Holy Spirit indwells me now, not after striving along some salvation trail, trying to obtain salvation on the installment plan of catholic sacraments and priestly mystical rites of cannibalization.
Here is the Gospel of Good News as the Bible teaches it:
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved right then, and God will put His Holy Spirit spark of spiritual life in you that moment never to leave you.Proof texts are John 3:14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 6:28They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Hebrews 11:3 - 31 ... all by faith
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Using the feminine pronoun to liven things up a bit, 'It is by faith ye are saved, that not of works lest any woman boast' (Eph 2:9) of her baptism, of her faithfulness to the catholic sacraments, of her rosary worship time, of her charity, of her deeds for the needy, of her transubstantiated wafers eaten, of her time in purgatory.
President George Q. Cannon
Elder George Q. Cannon was an apostle but was never the President of the Church. It’s improper to refer to him as President George Q. Cannon.
Brigham Young was a President of the Church.
Joseph Smith was a President of the Church.
apostle Bruce McConkie - Apostle is not a title. It’s an office in the Priesthood. His proper title is Elder Bruce R. McConkie.
Protestant fables.
No! All that was done was a regurgitating of the fables, lies ,and falsehood that non-Catholics repeat over and over again. Non-Catholics twist the meaning of Catholic beliefs and practices to the point that they are virtually unrecognizable.
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