Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.
Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.
There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.
Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." -- Heb 10:11–14
The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.
This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.
The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.
This is not the gospel.
Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.
But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.
I tend to look at this passage as a Rapture related passage. In 1Thes4:13-18 we read of the Rapture and in iCor15:51-52 read more about the Rapture:
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
To see Jesus as He really is in His Glorified state we would be seeing Him as a greater than 4 dimensional being, a being Who can appear in a locked and shuttered room or leave a stone tomb without rolling away the doorway stone or appear on the Road to Ammaeus or suddenly disappear. There is an argument to be made that Jesus appeared back int he Old Testament beside the River Chabar and on the Mountain with Moses, etc (the Christophanies). To do these things one is a more than 4D being, perhaps five, six or even seven dimensions.
To be able to see a five D being I would have to be a 5D being. To see a six dimensional being in their fullness I would have to be a 6D being. we can illustrate this with a simple analogy of flatland, a world of just length and width spatial orientation. If I want to show a being living int hat length-width world a ball, a length-width-height object, I would pass the ball through their world. But only where the ball intersects their world will they see any of the ball. To see the ball as it really is I would have to have length-width-height capability/essence.
Jesus gave this Physics lesson to Philip in John 14, sort of, when Philip said 'Show us the Father and that will convince us that Your are The Christ , you are a part of the One God.' Jesus replied, 'All you can see of The Father is what you see in me, for I am in the Father and the Father in me. If you've seen me, you've seen The Father intersecting your 'realm of capabilities' your sensory realm.
So, when Jesus appears in His six or seven dimensional self, we shall see Him as He really is because we will have been changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye to be of the same six dimensional reality, or however many dimensions He is using then. That also indicates that our change will cause us to no longer be sensed by the 4D world around us ... in essence, at the Rapture of the Church we who are being snatched away before the Wrath of God is poured out will simply disappear as we are caught up nto the clouds.
You are right, Petrosias. I have been reading and studying the Bible since January 31st, 1970, and I have major, irreconcilable disagreements with RCC doctrines. So be it. I will continue trucking for the Lord. You do what you think is right, and I will do what I think is right, and see how it all comes out in the end. Have a nice forever. 😇
As always, analogical language. Or as the Church says, anagogical: leading us to the very reality of that analogy.
Right MHG. Do you still have that offer to anyone who misses the rapture, that they can live in your house, or take whatever they think they might need, in order to survive the tribulation period? People who miss the rapture are welcome to take all my earthly possessions too, as I won't have any need of them anymore. 😇😎 By the way, I won't need those sunglasses either. 😆
Leave your ice skates for someone, too. Hang them on a conspicuous doorway.
Absolutely, totally, completely, 100% correct. We have no clue whatsoever of even beginning to imagine or understand this. 1 Cor 2:9, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those that love Him.
On the other hand, I also suspect that eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and it hasn't entered into the hearts of men, the things God has prepared for those that DON'T love Him too. That's what needs to be avoided at ALL costs. I intend to avoid those kinds of hassles.
If the reference is before the Great Schism (1054 AD) it would also include those Churches which are now known as Eastern Orthodox. Thus it would mean -- in the first millennium--- every Church in Christendom.
It can be pretty confusing, even if one is trying to be precise, because "church" is used in different senses by different people. For instance, in Catholicism, "local Church" = "Diocese."
In our own documents, we don't use the word "Church" for anyone outside of the above-described communion; and yet -- and yet --- St. Gregfory of Narek was just his year named a "Father of the Church" (Catholic Church, that is) although this 10th century pre-schism saint was neither (legally) Catholic NOR Orthodox, but a member of the Armenian (Oriental) Church.
That had a lot of people scratching their heads.
As I understand it, his theology and practice were "Catholic" --- he did not have any schismatic or heretical beliefs --- and thus he's de-facto Catholic, though not "juridically" (legalistically.)
Since Baptism is the sacrament by which one enters the Catholic Church, we regard you, R2Z, as being Catholic, too, if you are baptized. No matter who did the baptizing.
Sorry, that's just the way it is. :o)
Yes, leaving my Graf skates behind, as well as my Mac Book Pro, and my IPhone 6, will be hard to do, but I will somehow manage to live without them. Maybe there will be ice skating in Heaven. I know there won't be any in Hell. The ice would get melted by the INTENSE fires. 😇😆
According to what has been posted on this thread, catholic baptism is far more than mere entry into the institution of Catholicism. The catechisms claim it makes one ‘sinless’, but only if done by an ordained Catholic Priest. Is that correct?
“By baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin” (New Catholic Catechism [NCC] Paragraph 1263).
Incorrect. From the Catechism:
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.As long as there is an actual washing with water and the use of the Trinitarian formula the Baptism of non-Catholic Christians are valid. If one so baptized were to enter into the Catholic Church they would not be re-baptized.
A lot of verbiage to deny the plain words of our Lord. When some of his disciples understood him as speaking literally and departed Jesus did not correct them. When Jesus challenged the apostles and asked if they would leave too, Peter did not respond with “Oh, I get that you are speaking metaphorically. What rubes are those who left.” The length some people will go to deny God’s words when they do not match their human understanding!
It is not surprising to hear a Catholic dismiss every bit of the Biblical truth in order to believe a lie from the institution to which they have entrusted their immortal soul. May God have Mercy on their lost souls, and bring out from the heresies those souls who awaken to the Truth of what The Word of God declares.
"The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life." Peter knew the issue was not a cannibalistic ritual he needed for eternal Life, it was just what Jesus had, the Words of Spirit and Life. May God have mercy upon those int he catholic religion who never comprehend that and instead continue to participate in the pagan rite of eating the god of Catholicism.
I wonder, then, why he did not go and explain that to those disciples that left.
"It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life."
The words that he spoke were that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. The contrast here is between what he has just spoken and the crowds desire for earthly bread. Previously, in John 3, when Jesus speaks of the contrast between flesh and spirit he also says that we must be born of water and Spirit.
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit." (John 3:5-6)Jesus uses sacramental signs to impart spiritual gifts. The contrast between flesh and spirit is that between earthly and heavenly. The crowds were following him because they wanted earthly bread to fill their stomachs. It is not a denial of the reality of the Eucharist. Otherwise, you would have Jesus go on at great length how we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, even to the point of have many of his disciples leave, and then just dismiss this with a single verse.
Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
When Moses made the brass snake and placed it on a pole, anyone who looked at it was healed from the poisonous snakes bites in the desert. Jesus explained that to Nicodemus as foreshadowing The Christ being lifted up to draw all men unto Him. The clear teaching is that by faith the healing came to the ones faithing in the remedy. There are always those who will use the lesson to worship idols or commit cannibalize in a pagan fashion, to get the life of the worship of into them. Not many generations after entering the Promised land, some Israelites, a significant number, were making brass snakes and worshipping the idols. Like modern Catholicism, the spiritual lesson was lost to them and they instead turned to pagan rites which they believed empowered THEM.
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