The Gospel for Roman Catholics

Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.

Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.

There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.

Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:

The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.

This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.

The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.

Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.

But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.

Saving faith in Christ alone, Scripturally in the Holy Bible and also witnessed by at least one other non-Roman Catholic Christian posting here encompasses many other facets of daily living as parts of the whole of this kind of faith; facets that have nomenclatures such as "forgiveness", "humbleness" and "loving kindness", for a very few.

I posted the entry for the question, so that a dialogue over the Bema Seat in HEAVEN might be contrasted with striving for salvation and purgatory, both found to be foundational in Catholic dogma ... well, until Vatican II sought to launch an ecumenism.

It seems askquestions is offered as a a proxy for an evangelical catechism. Do you know its provenance ?

Is it possible to do this without ever participating in a Roman Catholic church mass? Is it possible for me, presuming I remain a non-Roman Catholic from now until the first death?

Then I suggest that we are talking past each other. For Catholics faith in the context of the debate between faith and works means the submission of the intellect to God. If you wish to under the category of "saving faith" the submission of the will in the concept of the obedience of faith then this is what Catholics mean when we use the term "faith and works."

Thank you for your suggestion, although I have no idea what you mean by it. I'll consider what you might mean regarding "talking past each other" vis a vis what I think you might mean. Getting us nowhere. But thanks again.

The only fitting worship of God the Father is the sacrifice of Jesus upon the Cross. With the celebration of the Mass this one sacrifice is presented to us so that we can join ourselves with Jesus in this sacrifice. This is why Jesus gave us the command to "do this in memory of me." The "this" is not just a communal meal but the new Paschal sacrifice that began with the Last Supper and was completed on the Cross.

Yes, this is similar to what many other Roman Catholics have posted here over the years and yet is not in complete agreement with what other Roman Catholics have said about the RCC mass. Which one of you is correct? Only you?

Are you aware that Lord Jesus Christ (Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary and Son of God) is no longer a corpse situated on the cross but has risen from the grave to be seated NOW alive with the Father in Heaven and preparing for His return to this realm?

The sacrifice WAS INDEED FINISHED AT THE CROSS approximately 2000 years ago. Jesus even proclaimed it so 'tetelesai' in Aramaic means 'it is finished'. ONLY Jesus can Sacrifice His blood and Body for our Salvation. He did it ONCE for ALL forever. as proclaimed clearly in the Bible (Hebrews 10 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.)

The Catholic Priest has no authority to 'bring Christ down to the Catholic altar to continue this Once for ALL sacrifice, only Jesus has that authority. And He sits at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven, waiting until The Ftaher makes His enemies His footstool.

“There is one holy catholic and apostolic church.” In the another religion’ of Catholicism as now functioning the ‘holy’ might be accepted by many, but it does not measure up to Holy as God is righteous. When I refer to the spiritual church, why is it that so many Catholics repeat the mantra of ‘Catholic Church’? Is it because a Catholic sees no difference between the spiritual Church and the institutional catholic church?

According to the RCC Catechism the Mass is essential to obtain salvation. That is the reason every effort is made on the battlefield to administer the Mass before death of a soldier. Is that correct, have I characterized the Mass properly with this? ... I’m not referring to last rites, I refer to the effort to bring a Mass to the dying man.

You actually have an incorrect understanding. I believe that you are speaking of giving Communion to the dying rather than the celebration of the Mass itself. There is a special form of Communion called Viaticum that is given to the dying. This is distinct from the Anointing of the Sick which is often called, incorrectly, the Last Rites.

Communion is one of those sacraments that are called the Sacraments of the Living. In other words, one must already be in a state of grace (i.e. saved) in order to receive it. The value of Communion is that it increases the grace of God within us, strengthening us to turn away from sin and toward the love of God. For the dying it can bring peace to the soul in a time of distress.

One is united to God, and thus saved, through Baptism. If one separates one self after Baptism through the deliberate and willful act of a serious sin then it is the sacrament of Penance, not the Mass or Communion, that is needed to have our sin forgiven and ourselves reunited to God. Communion can only be received after this.

That which you post here sometimes differs substantially from the posts of other RCs who post on FR RF. Which of the various RCC interpretations of the Holy Bible carries the most weight with you?

This is only apparent because often complex issues addressed here in simple posts. If you have any questions about the details of Catholic teaching then see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There is one holy catholic and apostolic church.

You have stated previously your firm belief that the Roman Catholic Church, commonly referred to on FR RF as the Catholic Church, is the one, only, and true Church of believers in Lord Jesus Christ and that salvation from sin is available for men through no other institution than the RCC.

I know that to be false, as do others here, and thus we will continue to disagree with some of your erroneous beliefs.

Are you aware you are leaving words missing from some of your posts? Missing words without which your posts are not completely understandable.

Not your great intellect Petrosius; simple faith in Jesus Christ alone.

You attempt to muddy the waters here sometimes.

Think about what you just wrote. You stated that The Eucharist of Catholic Communion/Mass/Sacrament is for the living, those who are already saved. If that were the truth of the Catholic system there would be no reason to pretend to 'bring Christ down from Heaven' and continue the 'sacrifice of the victim, truly, really and substantially present in body, blood, soul, and divinity', as your catechism states the 'reality of the Mass propitiation sacrifice.'

IF what you espouse were the truth of Catholic dogma then the Catholic so saved would not need the continuous sacrificing of Jesus , nor the rosary beads, nor any of the other sacraments touted as essential in the Catholic Catechism as THE means to obtain salvation.

There are eight parts/steps/essentials to obtain salvation according to the Catholic Catechism. The Council of Trent decree makes it clear that anyone without these essentials, available ONLY by the Roman Catholic Church, is damned eternally.

Vatican II came along and affirmed ALL these Council of Trent decrees, yet at the end of the Vatican II decree is included wording which allows for salvation by God's Grace to Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Moslems, etc, which contradicts the absolute decree of Trent.

Yes, but he also gave his disciples the command to "do this in memory of me." The "this" that he was referring to was the new Paschal sacrifice initiated at the Last Supper and finished on the Cross. It is the entire Paschal sacrifice, both meal and Cross, that we are to do in memory of him.

Remember that God is eternal, outside of time. Thus Jesus could say "before Abraham was, I am." He can also pull us out of time. John saw the actual events that he described in Revelation. He did not just see a film strip of what would happen in the future.

The "this" that he was referring to was the new Paschal sacrifice initiated at the Last Supper and finished on the Cross. It is the entire Paschal sacrifice, both meal and Cross, that we are to do in memory of him.

No it wasn't and it isn't.

You stated your personal belief as taught to you by your church but not backed by the Holy Bible in any way; your personal preference of belief but only one of many worldly churches which claim to be the one true Church or one true religion.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.
1415 Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance.
1416 Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sins. Since receiving this sacrament strengthens the bonds of charity between the communicant and Christ, it also reinforces the unity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ.

"If one separates one self after Baptism through the deliberate and willful act of a serious sin then it is the sacrament of Penance, not the Mass or Communion, that is needed to have our sin forgiven and ourselves reunited to God."

What did Jesus say those who believe in Him have? We would agree, Eternal Life.

What does the Bible show as evidence for a 'when' some received this ETERNAL LIFE? HINT: The Day of Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius.

Everyone saved will commit sin if they live in the body long enough after Saved, after they are born from above.

Jesus made the sacrifice so valuable for sins that ALL a man's sins are covered under ONCE For ALL Forever propitiatory sacrifice at Calvary, almost 2000 years ago.

The issue is how does one obtain this Salvation? Catholic catechism teaches it is a trail of striving to obtain this salvation, hallmarked by eight essentials to salvation.

The Bible proclaims and shows evidence that this 'born from above by believing in Him' is an immediate event, and results in God's Life coming into the born from above in that instance. THEN striving begins, learning the Way that the new born must go to be pleasing to The Father.

These 'born from above' family members of Jesus will kneel before the Bema Seat of Christ IN HEAVEN not at the Great White Throne of Judgment, to give account for the way they followed The Way as administered by the TEACHING by the Holt Spirit indwelling them.

Those last two paragraphs are in stark contrast to what Catholicism teaches and asserts RCC christians must believe.

No it wasn't and it isn't.

We can only disagree here. Given this disagreement, how are we to know whose opinion is true? Would our Lord institute such an important sacrament and yet leave us in the dark as to what it means? This is the problem with sola scriptura. Without an authoritative teaching church instituted by Jesus himself there is no way to settle this dispute.

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