Posted on 06/01/2015 11:54:08 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
I am not equation homosexuality or heterosexuality with pedophilia, nor am I saying that Josh Duggar ever committed homosexual acts at any point in time in any way, shape. form or fashion.
The point of this thread is like all of the others threads that I have written, and it is not meant to bash Josh Duggar. The point is to look at this situation and use it as a catalyst to continue on with other threads that I have started that deal with the following: "What constitutes salvation?" "Who is truly saved?" "Do we go by Arminianism or Calvinism?"
If Josh Duggar committed acts of molestation at age 14-15 (allegedly) and if what the Duggars have said is true that Josh Duggar gave his life to Jesus at age 7-8, was Josh Duggar truly saved at that age or was he falsely saved?
If he was saved at age 7-8 and later did commit these alleged acts, did he lose his salvation at that time of the alleged acts or sometime before he committed these alleged acts?
A.) I believe that 1.) molesting kids is a sin just as 2.) homosexuality is. There are those who disagree with me and say that 1 is a sin but 2 is not. So be it. The point that all would agree on is that #1 is at least equal to or worse a sin than #2 is, be #1 being same sex or opposite sex molestation.
If Josh Duggar committed these alleged acts then and was saved before he committed these alleged acts and saved still even after committing these alleged acts, can another person then commit homosexual acts at that age and still be saved both before and after committing them?
If not, and a person at age 14-15 commits homosexual acts and this is proof that they were falsely saved and were never saved to begin with, then was Josh Duggar, if he committed these alleged acts, falsely saved at that time?
If so, and he and his family said after he was age 7-8 that he was saved, how do we know now that he is saved if he says now that he is saved? How can we know wh9ch Duggar is saved and which isn't?
How do we know that some 'Joe Blow' person out there who goes down to the altar, is heard giving his life to Jesus, shows good fruit until he is 18, goes off to Bible college to become a Baptist minister and is still showing good fruit, graduates, becomes a youth minister and then later on goes off the rail after his wife and child die in a car accident and is out fornicating, smoking pot like it is going out of style, drinking like a fish and so on? Was this 'Joe Blow' ever truly saved?
If he is "out of fellowship with Christ" but still saved then if a person were to commit these alleged acts that Josh allegedly committed, would they be "out of fellowship" with Christ but still saved? If so, and #1 is at least worse than or as bad as #2 in A.) above, can a person commit homosexual acts and be "out of fellowship with Christ" yet still saved?
This ought to cover it for you.
Mark 3:28-30
“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin “— because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
They have the same opportunity as the woman taken in sin who was brought to Jesus.
He gave her an opportunity for repentance when he said go
thy way and sin no more.
If they repent and sin no more they will be forgiven.
Is salvation knowable?
A person can say “My heart tells me that I am right with Jesus and that I am saved,” but the Bilbe says “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?”
A person can then say “God is telling my heart that I am saved, but it could be the person’s wicked, deceitful heart deceiving them into thinking that it is God telling them that when it isn’t actually God telling them that they are saved, but its the fantasy out of their own heart.
Yes, there are many scriptures in the NT where the Apostles wrote to people to assure them of their salvation, but God was inspiring those apostles and knew that the people being written to were saved. That was then and they were writing to them. You have no assurance that those scriptures apply to you as they were writing to them then under the inspiration of God.
Define ‘saved’ as you mean it.........................
Billy Graham:
Q:
Is it possible for a Christian to live without sinning?
A:
Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian in this life will ever be completely perfect—that is, free from all sin (1 John 1:8).
As long as we are on this earth, we will always struggle against temptation and sin. That is one reason Jesus taught His disciples to pray (in The Lord’s Prayer), “Forgive us our sins … And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Luke 11:4, Matthew 6:13).
Sometimes we sin by our actions; sometimes by our motives. Often we sin not because of what we do, but because of what we fail to do. For example, we fail to love or forgive others, or in other ways fail to do things we ought to do—and that is sin.
However, there are three important truths we need to repeat over and over to ourselves. First, just because we sin does not mean we are no longer God’s children. Our fellowship with God may be broken, but our relationship is not. Second, when we sin God stands ready to forgive us, and we need to turn to Him immediately.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Third, God wants to help us (through His Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer) to avoid sin in the future. “Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).
Thank God that you belong to Christ, and thank Him for His grace and forgiveness when you do sin—and for strength to overcome future temptation. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).
A brother asked Abba Sisoes, “What shall I do, abba, for I have fallen?” The old man said to him “Get up again.” The brother said, “I have got up again, but I have fallen again.” The old man said, “Get up again and again.” So the brother said, “How many times?” The old man said, “Until you are taken up either in virtue or in sin. For a man presents himself to judgement in the state in which he is found.”
The Christian life is a life of perpetual repentance. I also strongly suspect that many more will find themselves on the left hand on the Day of Judgement through my own besetting sins of wrath, self-esteem, and pride than through the more exotic forms lust.
So a person can give their life to Jesus. still struggle with homosexuality and be saved even though from time to time they are committing these acts? Ok.
If so, does the same apply to someone who were to allegedly commit acts of molestation? Are they still saved before, during and after committing thess alleged acts of molestation?
The issue isn’t forgiveness, btw. God will forgive all sins except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
The issue is, who is truly saved, who is falsely saved, and can someone lose their salvation? if Josh Duggar did commit these alleged acts did he lose his salvation before, during or after, and if not, then a homosexual could do things and still say they are saved, right.
The size of the sin doesn’t matter. Adam didn’t molest anyone and he was cast out. Therefore, under your example, in order to be saved one must not ever commit another sin. Never get angry with ones brother(murder, never look at another woman with lust (adultery) etc. Therefore, applying your train of thought means no one is ever saved. Therefore, Jesus wasted his time on the cross.
You sound like once you are a Christian you longer need the the Gospel and that you will never sin again..Christians need teh Gospel to hear they are forgiven.
But who is saved, who is falsely saved and who is truly saved?
That is still the central issues.
Did Josh Duggar lose his salvation or is it possible that he was falsely saved at age 14-15 if all of this is true?
If so, and the family says he was saved at age 7-8 was he truly saved at age 7-8? If not, and was falsely saved, and they said he was saved then, how do we know he is saved now?
How do we know if any of the Duggars are saved? Any or some of them could be falsely saved.
Romans 6:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means!
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
You are mischaracterizing what I am saying.
Yes, a person can be saved, and yes no one lives a sinless life. But how do we know if Josh Duggar was truly saved or falsely saved? How do we know if he backslid at that past time id the allegations are true?
When does a person have to do for Baptists to say “That person was obviously never saved in the first place and was falsely saved!”?
Excellent article.
John 10:27English Standard Version (ESV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
The bible never tells us we can know about another person. The bible does tell us we can know about ourself.
Again, was Josh Duggar falsely saved when his family said he was saved at age 7-8?
Did he lose his salvation if he committed these alleged acts (did he lose it at age 14-15 if he did do them?”?
If not, then no sin and no amount of sinning after one is saved can cause someone to lose their salvation?
Which then brings up the point: How many sins and what kinds of sins does anyone have to commit before Baptists will say “That person was obviously never saved in the first place but was falsely saved”?
You infer that being “saved” means living a sin free life from that point forward. People sin regardless of their belief system, their desire to “do good”, and some even do it out of ignorance. Redemption through Christ is our salvation, and we will need it all the days of our lives.
Fallacy of false choice. I pass.
Are you G-d? How can you know?
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