Posted on 05/26/2015 1:05:01 PM PDT by piusv
E: that was a beautiful, thoughtful post you wrote; thank you, and pardon me for not responding right away, as I intend to...
V: we have free will from God. His Will is both ordinative and permissive, that is, nothing can happen in the universe unless God allows it to happen, or initiates it's occurrence.
Have to sign off for now. God bless both of you and our fellow FoRum members! Peace be with you! 🌟
I assume you mean a Protestant version of Non-Catholic.
I know Calvinists believe in “predestination” which I believe fits into the description that “Free will doesn’t exist”
There is a certain consistency to the argument of an all-powerful God knowing in advance all things in the future and with a “plan” for each of us. I just don’t believe it.
I’m not a Calvinist and I believe that free will not only exists, but is essential to us and Him.
Wow! Now we understand why there is a problem with calling the Blessed Mother Blessed!! We have shown repeatedly, over and over, that the supports for loving the Blessed Mary are in scripture, in Luke. However:
If a person doesn’t understand that we have free will, then the incredible choice that the Blessed Mother made in her Fiat will never be appreciated! The incredible wrong basis for the extreme error makes much more sense now.
Also -the entire bible is about free will and people’s choices, we don’t need chapter and verse because the whole of salvation history is a recounting of the choices of the men and women in the drama. Chapter and verse would be impossible to pick out because the enitre text is the story of man’s choices towards God or away; although I have no doubts that specific verses could be found.
The actual question to ask is: prove from the bible that we don’t have free will.
While we are discussing it, it can’t be proved from the bible that it considers itself to be the only source of doctrine anyway!
Being “required” to provide Chapter and Verse is irrelevant! This does not somehow call into question the inerrancy of the bible and it can and should be used to prove doctrine. It simply means that it isn’t the ONLY way to prove doctrine.
It cannot be proved from the bible that the bible is the only source of doctrine; because the bible doesn’t say that.
If anything, the earliest Christians who were born Jewish would have always assumed an oral Talmudic type tradition to go along with written scriptures. The Talmud is the oral instruction that Moses received along with the Torah. The idea that the first Christians suddenly only used written scripture is actually ludicrous; especially since the settled canon wasn’t even written down in one place and the new testament epistles consisted of scattered letters across Asia Minor at first!!
The earliest Christians who were born Jewish would not have even been capable of conceiving of a religious tradition without an oral component and that didn’t suddenly vanish into thin air until Gutenberg came along! (Gutenberg’s first bible was a vulgate, anyway!)
I know- preaching to the choir - thanks for letting me have a rant.
Keep up the good work in apologetics verga- Truth - the gates of hell will NOT prevail although satan will certainly try.
Thank you for a sincere and honest answer.
Isn't it amazing what MORMON leave out to give a FALSE impression?
Is a person's SALVATION determined by his works?
Salt Lake City; we have a problem...
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
And if they MISS one or BREAK one; then what?
The opposite of cherrypicking must be ignoring.
Like what MORMONs do by ignoring the very plain words of their GODs found here...
58 Now, as touching the law of the apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit dsin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be bglorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take aHagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
The Sport or the Lounge model?
CAn you post Scripture that shows Mary CHOOSING something?
Those who are in Christ have been forgiven (past tense) of their sins. Their sins are no longer held to their account.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Well as a responding non-Catholic, I'm already disproving your expectations, FWIW. And one of the main reasons I'm not a Catholic is, as a matter of fact, related directly to this question. Free will seems fairly important to me - without it, we're mere puppets who live, suffer and die solely for the amusement of an insane God. On the other hand, the disparity of initial birth conditions is so extreme that any concept of free will is reduced to how well we face difficulties which are sure to destroy us, versus having any hope of actually being on control of our lives.
That's why people who are so proud of how they've "built" their lives through hard work and discipline amuse me so much. They so easily discount those who have exhibited just as much - if not far more - of these attributes and still "failed" in the eyes of the world, for any number of reasons. No, in the end, free will can only mean the freedom of choosing our attitude towards our lives, as exhibited in our actions. That's it. The results are entirely up to God.
This isn't a "belief," it's a simple, obvious and enormously evident fact that exists in millions of ways all around us. And I'll prove it - do you have to pray and give thanks for your successes? Why, if YOU did it? Because in fact, you didn't do it. You made the proper effort, even a lot of effort. Even enormous effort. But you didn't make your success, and you know it. You know things could have gone the other way despite your efforts - you know it in your heart, mind and experience.
So success is a divine gift each and every time it happens. And yet, God's law also includes the simple fact that making right effort enormously increases the chance we will receive success in return, and studying what succeeds leads to even more probability of success in the future. So it's truly a mystery.
But is it "free will"? Because it's all we've got. Personally, I don't really care whether it's free will or not. It is what it is, and by acknowledging it and respecting it I become a better person. After all, it's not like anyone is going to survive this place, so what's the goal here? If living a certain way brings the most possibility of peace and prosperity and learning and happiness for myself and others - and prepares me more and more for facing whatever comes afterwards - then I call that the right path.
"Belief" is merely a word. How we live our lives is our true belief in God. And in the end, not knowing how things will turn out but still having to make proper effort, is that not the very definition of faith? So could this whole mystery be created by God in order to require us to learn what true faith is by having to live it? And learn compassion towards others dealing with difficulties despite their best efforts?
As for the philosophical definition, since determining the existence of "free will" as it is displayed in the world is inescapably dependent on understanding why the initial conditions are so different for each child born into this world, it's a term that simply cannot be determined philosphically unless you want to include reincarnation. There's just not enough in one single lifetime to explain those innate differences.
Now don't get your hackles up. Personally, I like reincarnation. Looked at from the soul's point of view, it means there's only one life with many chapters, and God wins over each soul no matter how long it takes for them to learn. And it explains free will plus different birth situations, and it doesn't get rid of hell or heaven. Granted, hell and heaven aren't eternal, so there's that. And ultimately the goal is union with God, not just living in a heavenly realm.
So I think it's beautiful, because it gets rid of the eternal punishment for limited sin thing and solves the birth differences thing. But I am also very aware that most Christians don't share my view and, fortunately, I have no need to try to convince them. Because in a very practical way, it's not necessary to live our lives properly. We still have to make the correct effort, on faith, and God still dishes out the results.
Oh yeah, here's the Bible verse required by the question: "This is the one ... there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist ... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 11:11-15)
Nobody ever said that salvation if for those except for Catholics.
Any Catholic can be saved if he puts his trust in Christ alone instead of the church. It happened that way for lots of us. We were Catholics, became saved, and left the Catholic church.
I do know what I’m mocking.
And I meant *assumption* and not presumption.
But I continue to find Catholics extremely tongue-in-cheek challenged.
Is that YOPI?
The righteousness of Christ is credited to my account, so even if I were judged on my works, God would only see the works of Christ as if they were my own, so I’d be good anyway.
"There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards."
"On Grace and Free Will" by St. Augustine of Hippo
There will be Catholics in heaven...BUT NO GOOD CATHOLICS ..(those romanists that trust in the sacraments, the works and the doctrine of Rome for salvation )
Most Catholics, when they are saved... see the errors of Rome and naturally leave ...but there are some that stay because of family, or tradition or they never really understood Catholic doctrine ...
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