Is the Catholic Church a Force for Good?

http://www.wordonfire.org ^ | May 25, 2015 | Matt Nelson

[ealgeone]

My individual salvation, is up to me. Jesus has opened the gates, but will I enter? Have I loved Him? Am I one of those he talks about who will say “Lord, Lord” but didn’t love his sheep.

First...keep the verse in context and you will see who this is addressed to.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (Matt 7:21-23)

Christ is talking to those who are not His followers. Do His followers practice lawlessness?

The Greek behind the word lawlessness means an utter disregard for God's law.

This does not describe Christians.

If your salvation is up to you then Christ died needlessly on the cross.

In addition, you've just shifted gaining Heaven from faith in Christ to what you do.....it's now about works. This goes completely against the Word and elevates a sinful man's efforts above a sinless Man's sacrifice.

Paul notes in Colossians 2:13-14 exactly what Christ has done for us.

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Tell me again what you can do that surpasses this sacrifice by Christ?

And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Notice Abraham's faith came before circumcision, the Law, etc. There was nothing he did that earned his salvation.

And continuing today....there is no "work" or deed you can do that will earn your salvation.

We are saved through faith in Christ....not because of any good deed. The good deeds we do, "works", come about as a result of our faith in Christ.

As believers we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise who is given as a pledge of our inheritance (Eph 1:13-14). The Greek behind this indicates the Holy Spirit is given as earnest money....a pledge of a promise of a future payment.

It is my prayer that you come to faith in Christ so that you may know you have eternal life as He has promised.

[RnMomof7]

Catholic believe this. Faith without works is dead! We do not believe "once saved always saved."

James was written to a converted church...not people seeking to be saved.. He is saying that the proof of our salvation is the works that flow from it... He does not ever say one is saved by your works or failure to do those works will cost you your salvation

Romanists never know if they have done enough , been good enough to be saved ..

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

-— I trust NO church! -—

Do you trust the Church that Christ established? Or do you believe that it no longer exists?

“If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” —Jesus

Why did Jesus give this enormous authority to His Church while He was still with us?

Why did this earthly Authority dissolve?

[RnMomof7]

Great, but Saint Augustine believed in the Real presence. So I would rather go by what he directly said about the Real Presence than what you infer.

NPNF1-7, Tractates on John, Tractate 27, Section 1 And He explained the mode of this bestowal and gift of His, in what manner He gave His flesh to eat, saying, “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” The proof that a man has eaten and drank is this, if he abides and is abode in, if he dwells and is dwelt in, if he adheres so as not to be deserted. This, then, He has taught us, and admonished us in mystical words that we may be in His body, in His members under Himself as head, eating His flesh, not abandoning our unity with Him. But most of those who were present, by not understanding Him, were offended; for in hearing these things, they thought only of flesh, that which themselves were. But the apostle says, and says what is true, “To be carnally-minded is death.” [Rom. vii. 6.] The Lord gives us His flesh to eat, and yet to understand it according to the flesh is death; while yet He says of His flesh, that therein is eternal life. Therefore we ought not to understand the flesh carnally.

[ealgeone]

“If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” —Jesus

STA.....context is key.

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven (Matthew 18:15-18).

[RnMomof7]

You can read exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist here in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Start at #1322. I was going to copy and paste but it is way to long.

The Catechism is not an infallible document.. it was not written or declared infallible by the magisterium nor the pope.. The catechism is simply a fallible human document subject to change ..

[FourtySeven]

You're right when you say James was written to an already converted (justified) community but that's actually the Catholic claim. No one is justified by any work. Only God's grace justifies. But once one is justified, the path to salvation includes work, and not just any work but work that cooperates with continued grace from God.

[James] addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save. This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.

So then which is it, faith alone or faith + works? You can't have it both ways.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. You say it's bad for Catholics to have a faith + works belief system yet claim the same for yourself. Make up your mind.

[RnMomof7]

Yes, Jesus saved all by his blood, that blood opened the gates of Heaven. That is a fact. Nothing we ever do can change that. Without His death on the cross we could never hope for Heaven.

Yep..exactly what Rome taught me.. Jesus opened the door, now you have to work to get there.. hardly "the good news" is it?

Jesus has opened the gates, but will I enter? Have I loved Him? Am I one of those he talks about who will say “Lord, Lord” but didn’t love his sheep.

Is that supposed to be Biblical ??Because it is not scripture..

Lets look at the scripture

Mat 7:Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 24And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Nothing there about not "loving enough".. .....It is clear..the person being damned LOOKED religious ... he had WORKS... and yet he was lost ....

Christ never knew him ... in spite of all the works..done in the name of Christ..Christ never knew him..

That must be the fear of every Catholic.. that they will stand at the judgement seat and inspire of all their human effort Christ will not know them ...

The real question is do catholics really know Christ.. not the Roman christ that only "makes salvation possible" , not the bread christ or the ritual christ... do they know the Christ that saves to the uttermost

hebrews7:25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.

Not Mary making "intercession" , not dead saints making" intercession" not "priests" making "intercession"...But the final High Priest, the fulfillment of the Old Testament type ...The final sacrifice ... interceding for us before the Father ...

[onyx]

[RnMomof7]

. No one is justified by any work. Only God's grace justifies. But once one is justified, the path to salvation includes work, and not just any work but work that cooperates with continued grace from God.

So one stands justified before God (found not guilty) and still must earn his salvation?? james says no such thing..

READ the scripture.. [James] addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving oneDo you understand what a hollow profession is ? I would say that identifies Romanists that believe Christ saved no one on that cross ..he just made it possible for them to work their way there

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day...

Christ did not add any provision to that promise

[JPII Be Not Afraid]

Mine: Why do I need to listen to you and just who is doing the lecturing?

Yours: I am a Christian, and I know the Lord, that's why you should at least listen long enough to understand what I'm saying, instead of apparently dismissing it out of hand.

This whole post will sound like a lecture, but I know of no other way to put it. I am sorry for this, because I do love my you. You may be a Christian, but you have no authority. A Catholic has one true deposit of faith given by the Holy Spirit to draw from. It has one complete belief that was instituted by Jesus Himself and has been contemplated and meditated on for 2000 years. Some chose to call themselves Catholic and not follow the churches teachings, but that is their problem. We pray for those. Just because you read the bible does not give you an authority to speak truth. The Catholic church does. You have over 30,000 different denominations all saying they have the truth. Each claiming to know what's best. This is why Christ wanted one universal church so there would not be confusion. We have an authority to speak from, an authority that has been guarded and protected from false teachings. This is why, in regards to faith, Catholics will not listen to what you have to say because you have no authority to speak from.

Would you allow your child to go to a Saul Alinsky seminar? No, why because their belief if not truth and what truths they may have are distorted to fit their agenda.

Mine: If you notice all these attacks against the Catholic church are from sola scripture reasoned faiths.

Yours:Did you not just claim in other comment on this thread, that the argument (the apologetic) which you presented was "all scriptural"???

Catholics do not claim to be sola scripture. We have great commentary, traditions, the bible, and the catechism to answer questions in regards to matters of faith.

If myself having tried to get you to think about this issue, is "an attack against the Catholic faith" then it deserves to be attacked.

Yes, I have gotten overly frustrated and lash out. I am sorry for this. I definitely am trying to work on the virtue of patience. But, God has done a great thing for my soul by getting me to read the bible more, our churches teaching more and excellent commentary more. In fact, I have grown even more in love with the Catholic church these past couple of weeks. And the best part, it has given me more people to pray for. So please bring on some more "attacks," Polly, I am ready.

Is the "Eucharistic flesh" (to use the term which you supplied) composed of human flesh (and blood)

Yes, it is true flesh and blood just as he tell us in John 6. That's the literal reading and we are not even sola scripture (sorry cheap shot). It looks like bread and wine, but is truly the flesh and blood of Jesus.

Or else be just yet another Roman Catholic failure (failure to communicate, failure to engage, failure to DO ANYTHING BUT LECTURE!). Well that, and putting the onus entirely upon others whenever the going gets anything like a little bit tough, coupled with response composed mainly of some sort of personal attack, attack, attack upon the person and/or else "faith" of the messenger, instead of open and honest discussion of whatever issue it is at hand. You know, the typical FRoman Catholic FReeRepublic religion forum type of response. After many years of it --- I stay angry at those sort of cheap & shallow forum debate tactics.

Yes, the shallowness of forum debates is ridiculous. But when I say you are acting like a liberal I mean you want me to read everything you have to say about the church, believe it as truth, change my faith, or else I am not being open minded. That is what a liberal wants to you do. We have answers to all of your questions, many try to answer them in a respectful manner, but you don't except our answers. You believe them to be out of right field somewhere and have no truth. We have the Holy Spirit's promise to guard the church against false teachings. We have the one true church, not 30,000 different interpretations. I know and am sorry this upsets you when we answer this way but what else do you want me to say.

Using your sola scripture only and read the following and tell me it is not literal. No commentary, just you and the Holy Spirit.

RSV John 6:

27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal."

35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

If you need to bring commentary into it, you do not believe in sola scripture and your interpretation has no authority.

[metmom]

So how many times do you need eat it to "live forever"

If Catholics are living forever by eating, then what's with all the Catholic funerals?

[metmom]

If He was speaking figuratively then why did John 6:66 take place? People don’t usually leave when someone speak figuratively.

They leave because they don't understand spiritual truths.

Jesus also said.....

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life

The flesh is no help at all. Eating Jesus flesh isn't going to do anything for anyone.

[ex-snook]

"The flesh is no help at all. Eating Jesus flesh isn't going to do anything for anyone. "

But you aren't the Pope so I won't believe you, sorry.

[FourtySeven]

READ the scripture.. [James] addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one Do you understand what a hollow profession is ? I would say that identifies Romanists that believe Christ saved no one on that cross ..he just made it possible for them to work their way there

Yes that's right James addresses what a hollow profession of faith is and that is, by definition, NOT a "saving one". And what is this "hollow profession of faith" (i.e., one that does NOT save)? How does James describe it?

One where there are no works present!! Wow, see how easy that is?

Do you understand what a hollow profession is ?

Yeah, I think I do (thanks for the condescending tone). However, if I may indulge in the same (no pun intended) I think *you* should read the Scripture again because clearly *you* don't "...understand what a hollow profession is".

[metmom]

That verse, taken out of context AGAIN, has been corrected many times and since it appears that it has not yet sunk in, I will post the verse IN CONTEXT again.....

This passage is not a blanket order to obey the leadership of any church which claims that it alone is the one true church.

It is at the end of a discourse addressing how to handle disputes in the body.

It lays out very specifically the steps one is to go through in resolving personal conflict within the body.

Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

NOWHERE does Jesus command us to "listen to the church".

The comment is *IF he does not listen to the church, then......*

That is a gross misinterpretation of the passage to claim or imply that it is a standing order of Jesus to listen to the Catholic church.

The clear meaning is here for everyone to see. It's dealing with disputes among believers, not absolute authority given to *the Church*.

[metmom]

You aren’t either so it works both ways.

[RnMomof7]

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (1 Cor 2)

[impimp]

1 Corinthians 11:27-29New International Version (NIV)

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Please interpret these verses for me.

[FourtySeven]

Amen to that.