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To: MHGinTN; HarleyD; Gamecock; Elsie; Springfield Reformer; Alamo-Girl; Tennessee Nana; metmom

I have and will only make one comment on the issue of free will. Are you going to take the credit and the glory for having chosen Christ or is that credit and glory due God alone?


871 posted on 06/04/2015 5:03:59 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; Seven_0

Exactly the right question to ask.


872 posted on 06/04/2015 7:23:31 AM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: CynicalBear; MHGinTN; HarleyD; Gamecock; Springfield Reformer

I have a question of my own.

Do you pray for unbelievers to be saved? Why? If you do so you are asking God to violate their free will.


873 posted on 06/04/2015 8:36:19 AM PDT by Gamecock (Why do bad things happen to good people? That only happened once, and He volunteered. R.C. Sproul)
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To: CynicalBear; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; Iscool; Seven_0; xzins; Springfield Reformer; daniel1212
As you are no doubt aware, scriptures tell us that no soul comes to salvation except God's Spirit draw them.[Romans 8 - 11] God does this drawing via His Spirit when the Word is shared with the hearer. Rejecting the Spirit drawing the hearer is the only un-forgivable sin because it is rejecting the ONLY means God has provided for Salvation. Yet God in His great mercy repeats the drawing/wooing again and again. But Scripture says 'My Spirit will not always strive with Man', so we know there is a limit in God's Sovereign Will that ends His efforts to get us to accept His Grace. This Truth has no meaning other than stagecraft if we really have no choice to make when God calleth. We do not know the Mind of God, so that's why we say today is the day this is the hour, God calls you to accept His Grace.

The poster to whom I have been responding tells me that God compels us to love Him. That's not love, that's not wooing, that's puppeteering. To assert that God forces us to be saved or not saved does violence to the Great Grace of God in Christ's sacrificing Himself for us. If man has no choice but to accept or reject the Gift, then it is no gift, it is but an act in a game played with automatons. THAT is not the God of the Bible nor the Plan of Salvation as God has shown it to us.

Let's not shift to 'the glory' just yet. To God is The Glory for He calleth us. Faithful is He that calleth us for He will also do it. Do what? Save us, seal us with His Spirit, sanctify us as we submit our will to His transforming Spirit within ('let God be God in you').

Except God's Spirit call to our spirit we are not able to 'hear with spiritual ears' (It is a God instigated/orchestrated moment of 'resonance' when God pricks the thing in Man that He, God, put there --the spirit of man-- to have direct contact with Him. John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.’ Young's Literal Translation)

Who is due the glory for His Grace? Why of course ONLY GOD is due the glory for His astonishing Grace. If man has no choice, why would God repeat this wooing, in deed why even do it a first time? The Calvinism I see operating today has become a vehicle to remove man from having any responsibility for his accepting or rejecting The Grace of God in Christ, and by this (thus) man rejects the responsibility he has in his own destruction. But without Christ in him, the Hope of Glory, that man is doomed to destruction. It is similar to the great trick of satan to persuade men that he, satan, does not exist. But of course he does exist!

This drives me 'toward' Armenianism. But I did not want to sidetrack this thread with discussions of the isms with the accumulated baggage of generations of philosophical discussion therein, because the process of seeing with spiritual eyes requires no more than to listen to the still small voice, believe that ONLY God can perform a spiritual miracle of New Birth, be born from above, so the Character of God is discerned in the Word He has given to us.

If God forces us to love Him, it is not love, for we read that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. And what does the Word say further? ... That whomsoever believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. In Modern Calvinism, whomsoever becomes only the chosen to believe and thus it is not an act of Love God performed on The Cross but merely a scene in a play, a game of lead soldiers maneuvered upon a game-board. Without the freedom to choose, the election is nothing but stagecraft. God forbid that we allow such a degeneration of His astonishing Gift of The Grace of God in Christ.

To remove the truth that man has been given a responsibility to accept or reject so Great Salvation (thus assuming it is all predestined to happen or not) is to cheapen the Greatest Act of a Loving God, Who is Absolute Sovereign over all His creation, and Who in His great Mercy has provided a way, THE way to be transformed back into what God first created humankind to be but was lost in Adam when Adam chose to defy God. If Adam had no choice but to sin then we are of men most miserable because we have believed God and believed that 'faithing' is counted for us righteousness. This is a righteousness we cannot achieve of our fleshly pursuits, but which we have been told by God through His Word and His prophets is the means by which He counts Christ's righteousness on our account.

That God can see the end from the beginning is not in question. That seeing, God is then solely responsible for what He sees is what is at issue. It removes any responsibility from man and cheapens Christ Crucified for us to stagecraft, God showing off His power with an act of horrific pain and suffering to achieve what He has already predestined, pre-arranged to be accept or rejected by each and every individual, thus every human remains in the rut of life God has preordained, some to eternal damnation/separation from God, some to Life eternal with The Creator of all.

Am I going to take credit and the glory for having chosen Christ? God forbid! To God be all the glory for first He loved us! Now let me ask you a question: In giving man a sovereignty over choice to accept or reject His Gift, has God given up any of His Sovereignty? ... I won't wait for a posting such as I received from the poster to whom I've been responding, lengthy passages from someone else's thoughts. The answer is NO, God gives up none of His sovereignty when he creates man to have responsibility to accept or reject Hid Grace. And this responsibility is indeed a sovereignty of man, for it is ultimately the working of Love. God teaches us that in loving others we are built up, not diminished. But we also note that in loving others, do we thereby force them to love us back? Well, that's not love is it!

874 posted on 06/04/2015 9:36:59 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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