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To: redleghunter; smvoice

I think we have to stop here and clarify something. Do you believe that the “church” has superseded the nation of Israel and God’s promises to it? Or do you believe that there are yet seven years left of the 490 years promised Israel in Daniels prophecies?


545 posted on 05/27/2015 10:41:44 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; daniel1212; Zuriel; roamer_1
I think we have to stop here and clarify something. Do you believe that the “church” has superseded the nation of Israel and God’s promises to it? Or do you believe that there are yet seven years left of the 490 years promised Israel in Daniels prophecies?

You should know better than that from my posting history. I view literally a tribulation to come where Israel will be the focus, the time of Jacob's trouble. The second coming of Christ with His saints after the marriage supper and His Kingdom established physically on earth for 1,000 years. That is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is that after Christ's resurrection those preaching the gospel early on somehow were preaching a different gospel. Frankly there is no difference between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace. For no man or woman can enter the kingdom of God without being born again. And one cannot be born again without the Grace of God. One cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit without the Grace of God. So what then happened on Pentecost if it was not Grace?

Also, and very frankly, no one was ever saved by good works, animal sacrifices or following religious observances. The book of Hebrews is clear on this. So even in the OT it was by Grace through faith which saved.

So I don't understand this theology which puts Jews on Pentecost and following years (chapters in Acts) as being saved by a supposed old covenant which is marked by physical water baptism and repentance. I think E. W. Bullinger and a few others believed that repentance and water baptism were 'works' and therefore 'found a way' to erase both from what Christians do when moved by the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

That's the crux of the argument IMO. If someone says "the church began on Pentecost" then that means ALL Christians must repent of their sins and be baptized in water. But for some that is an inconvenient truth. They see water baptism and repentance as 'works' as if coming to Christ is in a comatose state. I am not saying this is your view. As I have seen posts from you stating the Holy Spirit leads us to repentance.

That is the reason for the line of questions. It seems someone did a whole lot of "theologizing" to omit water baptism and repentance from the conversion of a believer. One must ask why as this does not fit with the Words of Christ to preach the same Gospel to the whole world. If we start with His Words, this is not so difficult.

555 posted on 05/27/2015 11:31:03 AM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
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