Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: CynicalBear; daniel1212; Zuriel; roamer_1
I think we have to stop here and clarify something. Do you believe that the “church” has superseded the nation of Israel and God’s promises to it? Or do you believe that there are yet seven years left of the 490 years promised Israel in Daniels prophecies?

You should know better than that from my posting history. I view literally a tribulation to come where Israel will be the focus, the time of Jacob's trouble. The second coming of Christ with His saints after the marriage supper and His Kingdom established physically on earth for 1,000 years. That is not in dispute.

What is in dispute is that after Christ's resurrection those preaching the gospel early on somehow were preaching a different gospel. Frankly there is no difference between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace. For no man or woman can enter the kingdom of God without being born again. And one cannot be born again without the Grace of God. One cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit without the Grace of God. So what then happened on Pentecost if it was not Grace?

Also, and very frankly, no one was ever saved by good works, animal sacrifices or following religious observances. The book of Hebrews is clear on this. So even in the OT it was by Grace through faith which saved.

So I don't understand this theology which puts Jews on Pentecost and following years (chapters in Acts) as being saved by a supposed old covenant which is marked by physical water baptism and repentance. I think E. W. Bullinger and a few others believed that repentance and water baptism were 'works' and therefore 'found a way' to erase both from what Christians do when moved by the Holy Spirit to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

That's the crux of the argument IMO. If someone says "the church began on Pentecost" then that means ALL Christians must repent of their sins and be baptized in water. But for some that is an inconvenient truth. They see water baptism and repentance as 'works' as if coming to Christ is in a comatose state. I am not saying this is your view. As I have seen posts from you stating the Holy Spirit leads us to repentance.

That is the reason for the line of questions. It seems someone did a whole lot of "theologizing" to omit water baptism and repentance from the conversion of a believer. One must ask why as this does not fit with the Words of Christ to preach the same Gospel to the whole world. If we start with His Words, this is not so difficult.

555 posted on 05/27/2015 11:31:03 AM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 545 | View Replies ]


To: redleghunter; CynicalBear; MHGinTN; winodog; metmom; Kandy Atz
"According to THE GRACE OF GOD, which is GIVEN UNTO ME, as a wise masterbuilder, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay that that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:10,11.

Hm. What does this mean? Paul is stating that he has laid the foundation, according to the grace of God which was given to him. Others are building on the foundation Paul has laid. But the foundation that is laid is built on Jesus Christ. If Paul was tasked by Christ to lay a foundation based on the grace of God that was given to him, why not thank Peter, if their gospels were the same gospel of the grace of GOd?

Moses was the master-builder of the tabernacle. God gave him the plans and specifications for it, and said, "See...that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount" (Heb. 8:5). Moses represented the law.

Paul represents grace. Paul too was a master-builder. To him God committed the plans and specifications for a greater building, "an holy temple", the church which is Christ's body. Step by step, revelation by revelation the details were made known to him by direct revelationS so that, as "a wise (intelligent) master-builder", he had the right and responsibility to outline those details to us, the body of Christ.

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visionS and revelationS of the Lord." 2 Cor. 12:1. Visions and revelations, both plural.

How can you expect us to give you a firm date when Paul says that his ministry and commission were based on REVELATIONS, not one, but more. It's a progressive revelation and building of the body of Christ, not a one moment in time event.

560 posted on 05/27/2015 11:53:55 AM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 555 | View Replies ]

To: redleghunter
>>as being saved by a supposed old covenant<<

Whooooops! Say what? Who has ever said that? Certainly not anyone I have seen.

>>It seems someone did a whole lot of "theologizing" to omit water baptism and repentance from the conversion of a believer.<<

What???? Where are you coming up with these? The preaching of the Kingdom does NOT mean going back under the Old Covenant.

The Jews (along with them the 12) were still of the mindset that Jesus would return forthwith to set up His earthly Kingdom. Study the actions and words of Peter. He was still concerned with eating with Gentiles, eating no unclean food etc. Remember that Christ had told them NOT to go to the Gentiles but that He had come to the lost sheep of Israel. It was NOT until after He had ascended and the Jews as a whole still rejected Him as their Messiah that Paul was sent.

I'm having a difficult time understanding why you don't see the difference.

563 posted on 05/27/2015 12:50:49 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 555 | View Replies ]

To: redleghunter; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Zuriel; roamer_1
It seems someone did a whole lot of "theologizing" to omit water baptism and repentance from the conversion of a believer. One must ask why as this does not fit with the Words of Christ to preach the same Gospel to the whole world. If we start with His Words, this is not so difficult.

I don't believe Jesus ever taught that water baptism is required to be saved.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

He did not say failing to be baptized with water would condemn the individual. It is a question of belief/faith. The other point to emphasize is baptism is done after someone believes. Infants who can't even count their toes have no way of believing.

Concerning repentance it has never been omitted from the Gospel of Grace. If you don't recognize your fallen state and your need for a savior how can you have faith that Jesus Christ paid for your sins. Repentance is remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin (according to the American Heritage dictionary).

582 posted on 05/27/2015 5:36:32 PM PDT by wmfights (a stranger in a hostile and foreign land that used to be my home)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 555 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson