Replies

AF, I have a developing work situation that demands my attention. It's quite a storm and it will take me offline, except occasionally in the evening, probably for the next few weeks.

With that in mind, I can only offer a fairly cursory response to your thoughts at this time. In short form then:

1) The "mistake" theory is not necessary to the larger point I was making. I merely mention it as a point of interest. The apostles may well have been doing the right thing. Even so, Paul was prohibited from following through on the ritual, and so no sacrifice was in fact offered on his behalf. We could say that God preempted him through circumstances. Then the question would be, would God lead them to do something that He did not intend them to finish doing? So the "mistake" theory, while not essential to my argument, remains a live issue for me.

2) As to the unity of the apostles in this situation, I do notice from my time here on the FR RF that RC readers of Scripture often find confirmation of things they already believe about Catholicism, and project that back onto the text. But a more rigorous analysis typically will show that the text by itself does not in fact confirm the Roman bias. In this particular instance, we cannot conclude that observing Moses was a universal requirement of Christian faith, because even in sending Paul to be purified, they readily acknowledged that this did not overturn their earlier decision respecting the liberty of the believing Gentiles. So at most your assessment that they were doing this because of Christ's teaching concerning the law could only apply to Jews. But then it is inconsistent with Christ's own teaching concerning the unity of the sheepfold. There are not to be two churches, one Jewish in practice, one Gentile. The better surmise, IMHO, is that they were doing this for the same reason they whittled down the behavioral imperatives for gentiles in Acts 15, to keep the peace between the two factions.

This is in keeping with Paul's own teaching regarding meat offered to idols. To him, in his conscience, it was a thing indifferent. The idols are nothing. The meat is fine. But as long as it might do damage to someone with a weaker conscience, he says he wouldn't eat such meat ever. It is a self-imposed limitation, done for the good of the body of Christ. That is a good and noble motivation, and fully explains the temple event without resorting to the superimposed idea that the apostles were actually motivated by a belief that full, Old Covenant Torah compliance was and would always be normative for Jewish Christians. The text doesn't say that.

This fact, BTW, is exactly why the mistake theory is unnecessary to harmonize Acts 21 with Hebrews 8, 9, and 10. I remain puzzled about it for the reasons stated above, but have no problem with the view that this temple event with Paul was nothing other than an attempt to build unity between the Jewish and Gentile factions of the nascent Christian family. There is no rational way to redirect this event to support a dual praxis of Gentile Christianity versus Jewish Christianity, which idea is profoundly at odds with Paul's teaching concerning the blending together of the two into one new man, which also coincides with Christ's own teaching on the same matter.

3) The third temple. As you know, I have always openly represented to you where I come from theologically. In eschatology, I am not a dispensationalist. I used to be. Followed Hal Lindsey and the whole nine yards. But now I am an Historic Premillenialist, after the model of Charles Spurgeon. We see no literal third temple. If there is a temple after the one destroyed in 70AD, it is either us, the Ecclesia, who are spoken of directly as the temple of the Holy Spirit individually, and corporately as living stones built on the rock of foundation in Jesus Christ, or perhaps at the end of days there will be a temporary faux temple, used to carry out the deception of the Antichrist for a time. But Hebrews is God-breathed revelation. The true Ecclesia will never look back to the shadows, except as instruction in Messianic truth, but not as a guide to ceremony.

And I will add that I have had this position, specifically on the Temple, for about 40 years. When I was a student at Moody, back in the early 70's, we had John Walvoord as a guest speaker. The dispensationist's dispensationalist, bar none. After the talk, he was meeting and greeting and I walked right up to him and confronted him about the heinous idea of reinstituting the sacrifice system in the Millenium, ostensibly in this third temple. I was offended then as I am now at the idea of erecting once again what God Himself tore down, so that His Son might receive all the glory for the once for all sacrifice He provided to all those who would come to trust in Him. The poor fellow was a bit flummoxed and really had no reply. He was expecting a friendly audience. And mostly they were. Not me. Not on this issue.

Bottom line, if Hebrews is canonical, and God-breathed, any sort of conscious return to the levitical sacrifice system, especially if viewed as literally necessary to obtain forgiveness of sins, runs way too close to the substance of the warning in Hebrews 10. We have passed through that transition, bumpy ride though it was, and ought not ever to go back, because going back willfully amounts to denial of the Messiah's greatest accomplishment.

Peace,

SR

AF, I have a developing work situation that demands my attention. It's quite a storm and it will take me offline, except occasionally in the evening, probably for the next few weeks.

Understood; work before hobbies

As certain of your own poets have said:

Almost aflame still you don't feel the heat
Takes all you got just to stay on the beat
You say it's a living, we all gotta eat
but you're here alone there's no one to compete
If mercy's in business I wish it for you
More than just ashes when your dreams come true
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Mickey Hart

The apostles may well have been doing the right thing.They were; original Jewish apostles, discipled by the Messiah himself, filled with the Holy Spirit he sent to them, binding and loosing, working love in unity; it doesn't get any more right than this.

Even so, Paul was prohibited from following through on the ritual, and so no sacrifice was in fact offered on his behalf. We could say that God preempted him through circumstances. Then the question would be, would God lead them to do something that He did not intend them to finish doing? So the "mistake" theory, while not essential to my argument, remains a live issue for me.

By this method of argument one could argue that Paul's mission to the Gentiles was a mistake and that God preempted him through circumstances, leading to his execution, and not only him but all the Apostles save John. One might further ask about the Jewish apostles entire ministry and work, would God lead them to do something that He did not intend them to finish doing and conclude since they were slain and driven out they failed and a new Gentile Christianity emerged only based on the doctrines that Paul taught. Some might even espouse those arguments on the FR forum. Now those would be ridiculous arguments.

As to the unity of the apostles in this situation, I do notice from my time here on the FR RF that RC readers of Scripture often find confirmation of things they already believe about Catholicism, and project that back onto the text.

Catholics tend to take seriously what Jesus said to, and about, his apostles, and believe the Father answered His prayers. They tend to love and honor those the Messiah chose to shepherd the flock, and regard them as blessed family. Catholics are brethren.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Matthew, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses fifteen to nineteen,
John, Catholic chapter fourteen, Protestant verses twelve to eighteen,
John, Catholic chapter seventeen, in its entirety,
John, Catholic chapter twenty, Protestant verses twenty to twenty three,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James