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To: af_vet_1981
What is the exact nature of the willful sin ?

I've always thought that was pretty obvious.  I would ordinarily say any sin, because every sin requires an act of the will.  But as I said at the beginning, that's a solution that works too well in this passage.  Where I was hoping we could go was the recognition that the author qualifies this sin in context to his overall theme of the book, the superiority and finality of the sacrifice of Christ, versus the mentality under Moses, in which there was always hope of some future sacrifice.  It is incontrovertible that the Mosaic system of sacrifice has ended. Jesus and what He did is all that remains for those who seek atonement.  Defy that, and there remains no alternative.  In which case we get to the idea that the willful sin here warned against is repudiation of Messiah and His sacrifice and returning to the shadows of Moses, even after having a clear opportunity to see the truth about Jesus through close contact with His believing community.

That this is not some one irreversible sin is further brought home by the fact that the sin spoken of is ongoing, in the Greek a participle, so not those who commit some single act of apostasy, but those who keep on defying the truth about the Messiah.  If they remain in that state of continuously denying Messiah, especially after having been exposed to the most convincing evidences through the teaching and body of Christ, there is truly no where else for them to go, and nothing for them to look forward to, other than their own doom.

None of this defeats or contradicts all of the evidence elsewhere that clearly indicates that when an apostate permanently leave the fellowship of believers, it is because they were not in fact a true believer, but an antichrist, as John says.  The wheat is always a wheat from a seedling, and the tare always a tare.  But in their early days they look a lot alike.  But as John says, when they leave, they are revealing their lostness, not causing it.

So this passage is not at all in conflict with the stability and permanency of the grace God gives us in saving us as His elect.  Quite the opposite.  The author even confirms this at the end of the chapter:
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Hebrews 10:38-39)
Do you see how the author is making a categorical distinction here?  We don't belong to the category of those who apostatize.  Why?  What's the distinction?  The nature of belief.  Some belief, as James says, is mere intellectual assent.  The devils believe and tremble.  But we are those who have the kind of faith that results in the saving of the soul.  Very clear.  Very consistent, even textbook consistent, with perseverance of the saints, per the Reformed view.

Are there some Protestants/evangelicals who avoid this passage?  No doubt true, probably out of ignorance.  But many do teach on it, and teach it well. It is a suitable warning to those who have come among Christians but have not found a secure footing in faith that saves, and who are wavering in their commitment to Messiah.  There is no more temptation to return to the Mosaic sacrifice, so the circumstances have changed from when this was written.  But the essential truth remains.  No one should settle for half-faith.  Go big or go home.  Playing Christian without the power of God's Spirit working through a changed heart is a losing game.

But for those who have sinned, and sinned willfully, and grievously, and yet are true in their repentance, we have this word:
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
(Matthew 18:21-22)
The servant is not greater than the master. If we are to forgive so many times over, will God be less gracious than us?  God forbid.  He will always be more gracious than we expect Him to be.  Those who have sinned, despite knowing the truth, if they repent, and finally come to have the faith that saves, as Hebrews 10 teaches, they do NOT qualify for the warning of the passage.  Only those who unrepentantly continue in their rebellion, because until they come to true repentance and true faith, there is nowhere they can go for atonement, if they refuse the once for all sacrifice of Jesus.

Peace,

SR

252 posted on 05/28/2015 12:47:38 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
None of this defeats or contradicts all of the evidence elsewhere that clearly indicates that when an apostate permanently leave the fellowship of believers, it is because they were not in fact a true believer, but an antichrist, as John says. The wheat is always a wheat from a seedling, and the tare always a tare. But in their early days they look a lot alike. But as John says, when they leave, they are revealing their lostness, not causing it.

Nonconcur; the author is not writing about salvation being a done deal for anyone (save those mentioned in the Roll Call of Faith. In fact he is rather careful to write that we are only saved if we obey the Messiah.

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews, Catholic chapter five, in its entirety,
Hebrews, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses one to twelve,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

253 posted on 05/28/2015 2:35:52 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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