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To: 5thGenTexan

I won’t load you with the great theological discourses of Augustine, Aquinas, Newman, or Benedict on the subject. So let’s try a once die-hard Protestant who converted Catholicism and who spoke to the Eucharist, the Sacraments the Veneration of Saints, and Marian dogmas.

A VERY SHORT ABSTRACT OF EVANGELICAL HISTORIAN
DR. A. DAVID ANDERS

From Dr. A. David Anders, who was born, raised and educated, as an Evangelical Protestant and studied Wheaton College. He set out deliberately to show why Catholicism was wrong. He ended up a Catholic convert. He brilliantly essays the belief in the Eucharist in these compelling terms. But first a short summary of his journey,

PROTESTANTISM: A CONFUSED MASS OF INCONSISTENCIES
AND TORTURED LOGIC

“By the time I finished my Ph.D., I had completely revised my understanding of the Catholic Church. I saw that her sacramental doctrine, her view of salvation, her veneration of Mary and the saints, and her claims to authority were all grounded in Scripture, in the oldest traditions, and in the plain teaching of Christ and the apostles.

I also realized that Protestantism was a confused mass of inconsistencies and tortured logic. Not only was Protestant doctrine untrue, it bred contention, and could not even remain unchanged.

The more I studied, the more I realized that my evangelical heritage had moved far not only from ancient Christianity, but even from the teaching of her own Protestant founders.”

THE EUCHARIST

“Scripture teaches that the Church is the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12). Evangelicals tend to dismiss this as mere metaphor, but the ancient Christians thought of it as literally, albeit mystically, true. St. Gregory of Nyssa could say, “He who beholds the Church really beholds Christ.” As I thought about this, I realized that it spoke to a profound truth about the biblical meaning of salvation. St. Paul teaches that the baptized have been united to Christ in His death, so that they might also be united to Him in resurrection (Romans 6:3-6).”

“This union literally makes the Christian a participant in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). St. Athanasius could even say, “For He was made man that we might be made God” (De incarnatione, 54.3). The ancient doctrine of the Church now made sense to me because I saw that salvation itself is nothing other than union with Christ and a continual growth into His nature. The Church is no mere association of like-minded people. It is a supernatural reality because it shares in the life and ministry of Christ.”

CATHOLIC SACRAMENTS

“This realization also made sense of the Church’s sacramental doctrine. When the Church baptizes, absolves sins, or, above all, offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it is really Christ who baptizes, absolves, and offers His own Body and Blood. The sacraments do not detract from Christ. They make Him present.”

“The Scriptures are quite plain on the sacraments. It you take them at face value, you must conclude that baptism is the “bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5 NAB). Jesus meant it when he said: “My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink” (John 6:55 NAB). He was not lying when he promised “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them” (John 20:23 NAB). This is exactly how the ancient Christians understood the sacraments.”

ANCIENT CHRISTIANS & CATHOLIC PRACTICES

“I could no longer accuse the ancient Christians of being unbiblical. On what grounds could I reject them at all? The ancient Christian doctrine of the Church also made sense of the veneration of saints and martyrs. I learned that the Catholic doctrine on the saints is just a development of this biblical doctrine of the body of Christ. Catholics do not worship the saints. They venerate Christ in His members. By invoking their intercession, Catholics merely confess that Christ is present and at work in His Church in Heaven.”

“Protestants often object that the Catholic veneration of saints somehow detracts from the ministry of Christ. I understood now that the reverse is actually true. It is the Protestants who limit the reach of Christ’s saving work by denying its implications for the doctrine of the Church.”

“My studies showed this theology fleshed out in the devotion of the ancient Church. As I continued my investigation of Augustine, I learned that this “Protestant hero” thoroughly embraced the veneration of saints. The Augustine scholar Peter Brown (born 1935) also taught me that the saints were not incidental to ancient Christianity. He argued that you could not separate ancient Christianity from devotion to the saints, and he placed Augustine squarely in this tradition. Brown showed that this was no mere Pagan importation into Christianity, but rather tied intimately to the Christian notion of salvation (See his The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity).”

MARIAN DOGMAS

“Once I understood the Catholic position on salvation, the Church, and the saints, the Marian dogmas also seemed to fall into place. If the heart of the Christian faith is God’s union with our human nature, the Mother of that human nature has an incredibly important and unique role in all of history. This is why the Fathers of the Church always celebrated Mary as the second Eve. Her “yes” to God at the annunciation undid the “no” of Eve in the garden. If it is appropriate to venerate the saints and martyrs of the Church, how much more is it appropriate to give honor and veneration to her who made possible our redemption?”

See
http://chnetwork.org/2012/02/a-protestant-historian-discovers-the-catholic-church-conversion-story-of-a-david-anders-ph-d/


80 posted on 05/18/2015 9:47:25 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: Steelfish; 5thGenTexan
I'm sure we all want to pattern our life after Dr. A. David Anders.

/s

97 posted on 05/19/2015 7:30:20 AM PDT by BipolarBob (One + God is always a majority.)
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To: Steelfish
I concede that I misused "veneration". Let me clarify my point:

Yes, honor her willingness to accept her calling. Respect her role in the raising of our Lord in His earthly body. She is an incredible role model for unquestioning obedience to God's desire in our lives.

I take issue with placing her at a point between Jesus and ourselves. I also have issue with any saints as intercessors. Jesus was clear in John 14:6:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

I see a distinction between His command for us on earth to pray to Him for one another and asking Mary or another saint who is no longer among the physical living to go to the Father (or Jesus) on our behalf.

Those in the Church who are praying for each other are creating bonds with each other by sharing in each others' lives, strengthening the Body of Christ. It is not that some have special connections to God that others do not. It is the act itself that is meaningful. God hears all prayers.

124 posted on 05/19/2015 10:59:17 AM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: Steelfish; 5thGenTexan
. But first a short summary of his journey,

To damnation. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

“By the time I finished my Ph.D., I had completely revised my understanding of the Catholic Church. I saw that her sacramental doctrine, her view of salvation, her veneration of Mary and the saints, and her claims to authority were all grounded in Scripture, in the oldest traditions, and in the plain teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Meaning he found what he wanted, despite her view of salvation by merit, so that must be spend an indeterminate time in postmortem purifying torments until they become good enough (and atone for sins) to enter Heaven;

, her veneration of Mary and the saints

While Prots do venerate Biblical saints, such as Paul, and men and women of faith, Cath veneration includes bowing down to statues of such and praying to them in Heaven, which is never ever commanded or seen in Scripture, except by pagans making supplication and offerings to the only "Queen of Heaven" in Scripture. (Jer. 44)

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, even with adulation, attributes, glory and titles never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers addressed to them, and beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them. Which would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine by playing word games they avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Instead they should do what Mary and every believer in every prayer to Heaven did (and I should do more of), which was to pray directly to the Lord, not secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Instead Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

her claims to authority were all grounded in Scripture, in the oldest traditions, and in the plain teaching of Christ and the apostles.

Meaning as defined by Rome, with tradition being made equal as needed. Mormons claim and do likewise, and as with them, the RC claim to be Scriptural is based upon the premise that Scripture (etc.) only consists of and means what she says in any conflict. However, the manifest reality is that there is a whole list of RC inventions it has accumulated in its progressive deformation, from infant regeneration and justification thru sprinkling or water, to ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, to the Lord's Supper being that of offering the "real" but not bloody body of flesh and blood of Christ as a sin offering, and literally consuming this as in order to obtain spiritual life, to a separate class sacerdotal believers distinctively titled "priests" since they uniquely engage in the former practice, to praying to created beings in Heaven, to becoming good enough to enter Heaven thru purgatorial torments, etc.

“Scripture teaches that the Church is the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12). Evangelicals tend to dismiss this as mere metaphor, but the ancient Christians thought of it as literally, albeit mystically, true. ...“For He was made man that we might be made God” (De incarnatione, 54.3)...I saw that salvation itself is nothing other than union with Christ and a continual growth into His nature.

Somehow Anders missed the classic teaching that the church is indeed the body of Christ, thus by persecuting the church Paul was persecuting Christ, (Acts 9) while he adds what is missing from Scripture, that Christians become God by union with Christ and a continual growth into His nature.

That Christians are to progressively become partakers of the Divine nature in becoming more Christ-like in character and virtue, and will one day be conformed to Christ in glorified body, with rewards, is evangelical teaching such as classic commentaries (Matthew Henry, Adam Clark, etc.) exhort. But which Anders seems to have missed, likely under liberal profs.

Like other evang. converts to Rome i have read, this one also seems to have been an evangelical in name only, not regeneration.

“This realization also made sense of the Church’s sacramental doctrine.

Meaning error begats error. Once he lent his mind to Rome for indoctrination, he progressively become like a brainwashed cultist.

Jesus meant it when he said: “My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink” (John 6:55 NAB).

Therefore, keeping with the literalistic interpretation of Jn. 6:53ff, it is an unequivocal necessity that one believing in the Cath "real presence" and consume it in order to obtain spiritual life. Which is nowhere taught in the rest of Scripture, nor is literally eating anything ever a means of obtaining spiritual life.

The ancient Christian doctrine of the Church also made sense of the veneration of saints and martyrs...By invoking their intercession,

Thus despite over 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture, all of which are directly addressed to God, and not a single supplication being made to any created beings except by pagans; And in which communication btwn created beings requiring both to be in the same realm, and only God being shown to have the ability to hear the multitudinous prayers directed to Heaven, and Christ is specifically stated to be the only heavenly intercessor btwn man and God, and uniquely qualified to be so, (1Tim. 2:5; Heb. 3,4) this willingly brainwashed fool believes Cath teaching which is foreign to Scripture.

And attempted support for which is based upon specious extrapolation, wrongly presuming a correspondence btwn earthy relations and those btwn the Heavenly and earthly realm that Scripture nowhere examples of teaches.

It is the Protestants who limit the reach of Christ’s saving work by denying its implications for the doctrine of the Church.”

Mormonic theology claims the same, with men becoming Gods, and a heavenly mother, and effectively infallible head, and extraScriptural revelation being above Scripture.

As I continued my investigation of Augustine, I learned that this “Protestant hero” thoroughly embraced the veneration of saints.

Luther was also too Catholic, and which is a another reason why we are "not to think of men above that which is written." (1Cor. 4:6) Somehow this sppsd evangelical missed that and thus became a deceived devotee.

“Once I understood the Catholic position on salvation, the Church, and the saints, the Marian dogmas also seemed to fall into place.

More testimony to progressive error begetting error.

If it is appropriate to venerate the saints and martyrs of the Church, how much more is it appropriate to give honor and veneration to her who made possible our redemption?”

But the Holy Spirit fails to do so after the Catholic manner, for while recording Mary as being a holy worshipful virgin vessel for the body God had provided, and whose Spirit-filled beatitudes are inspiring, the Holy Spirit fails to exalted Mary as the almost almighty demigoddess of Catholicism , while giving far more press to the labors of Paul in birthing Christians and churches, while the Lord made all who do the will of His Father to be His mother and brethren, "missing" a prime opportunity to exalt Mary as per Caths.

No wonder the papacy and forgeries of Rome which supported it were so useful.

179 posted on 05/19/2015 1:17:06 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Steelfish
“By the time I finished my Ph.D., I had completely revised my understanding of the Catholic Church. I saw that her sacramental doctrine, her view of salvation, her veneration of Mary and the saints, and her claims to authority were all grounded in Scripture, in the oldest traditions, and in the plain teaching of Christ and the apostles.

He lied...No need to go on reading any more...One of the great things about God is that he wrote his scripture in a way that one doesn't have to have a phd to understand it...

925 posted on 06/07/2015 7:40:38 PM PDT by Iscool
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