‘...no prayer to the deceases saints’
that is one of the most unscriptural things I have seen you post.
you are as wrong as wrong can get.
first of all saints, and not just saints, but all people who have ‘fallen asleep’ are ‘alive in Christ’.
Now if you haven’t heard those phrases you aren’t reading scripture and if you are reading it you aren’t understanding it.
anyway bad, bad, bad theology ‘no prayer to deceased saints’
AMDG
Please show me the prayers to Moses or David by the NT church ....
Perfectly good theology IF the model is NT teaching and practice. In reality, ancient Roman culture was deeply into prayers to ancestors, etc., and after Christianity finally started getting some acceptance in the higher classes (post Second Century), more of these pre-Christian practices became acceptable among Christians. The theology justifying it came later, as a rationalization added on.
BTW, I've looked at the soul-sleep issue and while I respect the sincerity of those who believe it, I don't think it squares with Scripture. I accept, and I think many evangelicals also accept, that believers are alive in some sense before the Lord even before their resurrection. That is not the point of disagreement.
Rather, the real question is what is our model for prayer? To whom should we pray? If we were ever instructed in the Scriptures to pray to deceased believers, we would have no disagreement whatsoever. But all the instruction on prayer as a spiritual exercise, 100% of it, directs that prayer to no one but God.
For example, sometimes this passage is used to support the practice:
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(Revelation 5:8)
The premise is that "the prayers of saints" in the golden vials are being intercepted by the 24 elders, who are alleged to be deceased saints charged with conveying these prayers to God. But there is nothing here saying these 24 elders are deceased saints. Revelation is full of symbolic imagery. A common view of the 24 elders is that they represent the full community of old and new covenant believers (twelve tribes of Israel + twelve apostles = 24 elders), and that therefore the prayers they are offering to God are really their own, as the elders represent in one form what the prayers represent in a different form, which would be a perfectly reasonable symbolic method.
Furthermore, we know that even living saints, i.e., any person set aside to God through the Holy Spirit simply by believing in Jesus, are said to be seated in heavenly places, as here:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:And who is Paul addressing here? Ordinary, living believers. And yet in Christ we already are seated in Heaven.
(Ephesians 2:4-6)
Again, if there are any other Scriptures that supposedly support this practice, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.
Peace,
SR
True -- if you're saved. Not 'all' people are saved. But those who are with Christ do not hear prayers. They're not omniscient. Only the Triune God hears prayer.
Besides... how does the Roman Catholic Cult, who teaches that there is a place called Purgatory, know that these humanly canonized saints aren't in Purgatory themselves? Do they hear prayers there where they're getting flame-cleaned?
The only unscriptural things I've seen here are the unbiblical teaching put forth by the Roman Catholic Cult.
Hoss
I guess that only the DEAD in Christ will RISE at the last trump.