Augustine vs. Catholicism

Research | 5/8/2015 | Myself

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Since I have a bit of free time today, I thought I'd make a post sharing a few of the ways Augustine differs with Roman Catholicism. This is by no means the only ways Augustine differs with the Catholic church, but does represent at least part of the more eye opening divergences. This is important, as Roman Catholicism tends to promote an image of having an unbroken succession of doctrine, as if what they say stands on the "universal consent" of the church fathers:

"I also admit the holy Scriptures, according to that sense which our holy mother Church has held and does hold, to which it belongs to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures: neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of The Fathers." Pope Pius IV, Profession of the Tridentine Faith, Article 3

So, in testing these claims, here we go:

On the Extent of Grace and Whether any are Predestinated for Damnation

Roman Catholicism

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

Pope John Paul II: "The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation." (Redemptoris Missio, n. 10).

Salvation is universal in that it is offered to all human persons. But this offer is not merely theoretical. Salvation is concretely available to all persons. The grace of Christ in the Spirit enables each person to obtain eternal life by free cooperation with grace. For "Christ died for all men," not only for some (Gaudium et Spes, n. 22).

"In the New Testament, the universal salvific will of God is closely connected to the sole mediation of Christ: '[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all' (1 Tim 2:4-6)." (Cardinal Ratzinger, Dominus Jesus, n. 13) God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.(Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1037)

Augustine

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

"We know that God's grace is not given to all men . To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God's righteous judgment that it is not given." (Augustine, Treatise On Rebuke and Grace)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)

“Wherefore, the Lord, about to give the Holy Spirit, said that Himself was the bread that came down from heaven, exhorting us to believe in Him. For to believe in Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again. A babe within, a new man within. Where he is made new, there he is satisfied with food. (12) What then did the Lord answer to such murmurers? Murmur not among yourselves. As if He said, I know why you are not hungry, and do not understand nor seek after this bread. Murmur not among yourselves: no man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him. Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26)

On the Power of Grace-- whether we must cooperate to receive salvation or whether grace works in us both a new will and good works irresistibly

Roman Catholicism "The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: 'Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,' we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; 'Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,' we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God." (Council of Trent)

Augustine

"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)

“And further, should any one be inclined to boast, not indeed of his works, but of the freedom of his will, as if the first merit belonged to him, this very liberty of good action being given to him as a reward he had earned, let him listen to this same preacher of grace, when he says: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13) and in another place: “So, then, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” (Rom 9:16) Now as, undoubtedly, if a man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it; in what sense is it not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, except that, as it is written, “the preparation of the heart is from the Lord?” Otherwise, if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, because it is of both,” that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)

"Can you say, 'We will first walk in His righteousness, and will observe His judgments, and will act in a worthy way, so that He will give His grace to us'? But what good would you evil people do? And how would you do those good things, unless you were yourselves good? But Who causes people to be good? Only He Who said, 'And I will visit them to make them good,' and, 'I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them'(Ezek.36:27). Are you asleep? Can't you hear Him saying, 'I will cause you to walk, I will make you to observe,' lastly,'I will make you to do'? Really, are you still puffing yourselves up? We walk, true enough, and we observe, and we do; but it is God Who He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy going before us." (Augustine - Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 4:15)

When we commit sin, we get no help from God; but we are not able to act justly, and to fulfil the law of righteousness in every part, unless we are helped by God. Light does not help our physical eyes to shut out light; rather, light helps our eyes to see, and the eye cannot see at all unless light helps it. Likewise God, Who is the light of the inner self, helps our mental sight, in order that we may do some good, not according to our own righteousness, but according to His. But if we turn away from God , it is our own act; then we are wise according to the flesh, then we consent to the lust of the flesh for unlawful deeds . When we turn to God, therefore, He helps us; when we turn away from Him, He forsakes us. But God even helps us to turn to Him; and this, certainly, is something that light does not do for the eyes of the body. When, therefore, He commands us in the words, ‘Turn to Me, and I will turn to you’ (Zech. 1: 3), and we say to Him, ‘Turn us , O God of our salvation’ (Ps. 85: 4), and again, ‘Turn us, O God of hosts’ (Ps. 80: 3) — what else do we say but, ‘Give what You command’? When He commands us, saying, ‘Understand now, O simple among the people’ (Ps. 94: 8), and we say to Him, ‘Give me understanding, that I may learn Thy commandments’ (Ps. 119: 73) — what else do we say but, ‘Give what You command’? When He commands us, saying, ‘Do not go after your lusts’ (Ecclesiasticus 18: 30), and we say to Him, ‘We know that no-one can be chaste, unless God gives it to him’ (Wisdom 8: 21) — what else do we say but, ‘Give what You command’? When He commands us, saying, ‘Do justice’ (Isa. 56: 1 ), and we say, ‘Teach me Your judgments, O Lord’ (Ps. 119: 108) — what else do we say but, ‘Give what You command’? Likewise, when He says: ‘Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled’ ( Matt. 5: 6), from whom should we seek the meat and drink of righteousness, but from Him Who promises His fullness to those who hunger and thirst after it? (Augustine, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, 2: 5)

Except for the ones taken from books, you should be able to find the majority of these on

newadvent.org/fathers

[paladinan]

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichæus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you—If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichæus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;— Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichæus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichæus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichæus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you."
-St. Augustine, Against the Fundamental Epistle of Manichaeus, 5

[Lil Flower]

So which are you?

[amihow]

All that energy you put into that post could have been put elswhere if you had remembered that no saint and no theologian is authoritative. The Magisterium of the Church is the final arbiter of faith and morals, although any saint or theologian may say the same..

[Zionist Conspirator]

Augustine called himself a Catholic and he celebrated all those non-scriptural Catholic holidays (like "epiphany" on 1/6).

Isn't he the one who said "I would not believe the gospel were it not taught by the Catholic Church?" That used to be someone's tagline here on FR.

[kosciusko51]

So, was Augustine espousing the correct view of the Catholic church when he said that “We know that God’s grace is not given to all men . To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God’s righteous judgment that it is not given.” (Augustine, Treatise On Rebuke and Grace), or is he a heretic of the Catholic church?

If he is to be believed, then what he has said above was “moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.” It appears that the Church’s teaching has changed, or Augustine was lying when he said he was “moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”

[HossB86]

The Magisterium of the Church is the final arbiter of faith and morals

Funny... I didn't know the Magicsterium had instituted a coup and replaced God Almighty!

Good to know, I suppose....

Hoss

[kosciusko51]

But did the Magisterium of the Church rebuke Augustine for his teaching that “We know that God’s grace is not given to all men.” when he said it? If not, why, since this disagrees strongly with the current teachings of the Catholic church?

[paladinan]

You're going to have to help me out, and tell me where you found that quote. I have a copy of St. Augustine's "Treatise on Rebuke and Grace", and I don't see anything even CLOSE to what you wrote, there.

In fact, I see at least one quote from that document which says the very opposite:

"But at that time even mercy itself shall be allotted in righteous judgment in accordance with the merits of good works. For when it is said, Judgment without mercy to him that has showed no mercy, it is plainly shown that in those in whom are found the good works of mercy, judgment shall be executed with mercy; and thus even that mercy itself shall be returned to the merits of good works." (Ch. 41)

[safeasthebanks]

Matthew 22: 37-40

Jesus said unto him, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

[kosciusko51]

I was quoting from original post, and took it at face value. Please ask Greetings_Puny_Humans where he found it.

[stonehouse01]

St. Augustine was a Catholic Bishop and there is no getting around it:

From the Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers:

St. Augustine, Bishop and Doctor: How the Mind Becomes capable of grasping the mysteries:

“What must God’s Church (note the visible Church, not an invisible undefined vague “group”) do to comprehend that which it was the first to be given to believe? Let it make its soul capable of receiving what shall be given it. That it may do this, that is, that the soul may become capable, the Lord our God as it were HOLDS HIS PROMISES OUT OF OUR REACH; He does not withdraw them.He so withhodls them that we may stretch ourselves towards them. We strain, and therefore we grow. And so we grow, that we may reach what He promised us. Think of the Apostle stretching forth towards the WITHHELD promises: NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED, OR WERE ALREADY PERFECT. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind and stretching forth myself the things that are before, I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Jesus Christ. (Phil iii 12-14)”

Clearly St, Augisutine agrees with the Church’s doctrine that the promises are not here already while we “run the race” and we are not perfected yet on earth.

Also - non Catholics do not allow anyone else to interpret scripture for them; this post seems contradictory to non catholic tradition (small t).

Augustine in other writings clearly embraces the sacraments as well, and as I own the complete Sunday sermons I can easily quote them without cherry picking from an internet search; but won’t won’t bore everyone with long winded text when it can be resarched for oneself.

[The Cuban]

Problem with your article is the premise:No we don’t believe in am unbroken line of doctrine. That is gibberish.

[amihow]

They did not rebuke him because they know all are capable of error and the charism of proclaiming truth of faith and morals was given by Christ to teaching Magisterium with Pope. And his error was rebuked by the magisterial teaching to which you refer.

Rebuke of individuals by Church rare.

[Salvation]

For some reason you seem to have a vendetta against St. Augustine. Can you tell us why?

[Salvation]

Now for the truth:

The Greatness of Little Things: A Reflection on a Quote From St. Augustine
St. augustine and confession {catholic/orthodox caucus}
Saint Augustine on Sin, Fear and Love (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Restless Heart: Confessions of Augustine
St. Augustine premiers on the big screen
Augustine on the Need to Know Hebrew and Greek

Pope Benedict points to St. Augustine as source of unity with Orthodox
St. Augustine's Legacy to the Church
On St. Augustine's Conversion
On the Writings of St. Augustine
On St. Augustine's Search for Truth
St. Augustine's Last Days
On St. Augustine
Pope to Visit Tomb of St. Augustine
Was St. Augustine Catholic? YES!
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
Pope: St Monica and St Augustine for youth who go down “wrong roads” and “dead ends”

“A pledge of eternal life”: Augustine on “dew”
You Have to Love A Pope Who Loves St. Augustine
Pope Receives Relics of St. Augustine
St. Augustine, August 28
Two Cities: Augustine’s City of God
Archbishop Sheen Today! -- St. Augustine of Hippo
St. Augustine of Hippo Two Cities: Augustine’s City of God (Chuck Colson on citizenship)
St Augustine Of Hippo
Saint Augustine
Teaching Of St.Augustine of Hippo

[kosciusko51]

Was his teaching refuted during his lifetime? If so, can you point me to this?

[amihow]

Christ instituted it. Scripture says so.

[paladinan]

Well... here's an online copy of the text; can YOU find the portion where St. Augustine allegedly says what the quote says? If not, then it wouldn't be logical to ask if "the Church rebuked St. Augustine" for something he didn't say...

[HossB86]

Christ instituted it. Scripture says so.

Christ instituted the Magicsterium? Really?

Chapter and verse, please...

Hoss