Catholic Church never works for conversions: Syro Malabar Major Arch Bishop

The Times of India ^ | May 1, 2015 | Stanley Pinto

[ebb tide]

The Catholic church never works for conversions. There are people who misunderstand the mission of Christians, especially of the Catholic church, said Cardinal Mar George Alenchery, the major archbishop of Syro Malabar Church.

The major archbishop, who is on a pastoral visit to the diocese of Belthangady till May 5, said, "Conversion is a personal response of a person to God. Nobody can force or coerce a person. The church witnesses the charity of Christ and proclaims Christian values—truth, justice, love and harmony—to others. This attracts people. It is not something which we create, it is something they (people) request.

"Evangelization is not converting people. Actually conversion is not a business of a pastor or missionary. Conversion happens in the mind of a person while listening to the word of God. Ghar Wapsi is too simple a reaction to a complex problem," he added.

The archbishop said his pastoral visit is to maintain a contact with the clergy, laity and an occasion to rejuvenate the energies of those engaged in the work of church. ``A pastoral visit helps the bishop to evaluate the effectiveness of the structures and agencies designed for pastoral services, take account of the circumstances and difficulties and determine more accurately the priorities,'' he said adding this was the 16th year of the establishment of Belthangady as a diocese.

The archbishop visited St Alphonsa Forane Church, Kankanady, where he was met Mangalore diocese bishop Aloysius Paul D'Souza, bishop of Belthangady Mar Lawrence Mukkuzhy and vicar general Fr Joseph Valiaparambil among others.

A religious harmony meet was also held on Bishop's House Campus in Belthangady on Friday. Religious leaders Sri Kshetra Dharmastala dharmadhikari D Veerendra Heggade, Kukke Sri Narasimha Mutt seer Sri Vidyaprasanna Thirtha Swamiji, Maulana Abdul Aziz, Union minister for law and justice D V Sadananda Gowda, ministers B Ramanath Rai, Vinaykumar Sorake, U T Khader and MP Nalin Kumar Kateel were present.

[stanne]

No idea

[ebb tide]

Well, we are talking about the bishop. I’m just repeating what he says

Whoopee! And if repeat what Cardinal Kasper, "the Pope's theologian" says, I'll be a heretic just like Kasper.

[ebb tide]

St Francis himself who had a great conversion, said, preach the Gospel. And if necessary, use words’

St Francis never uttered the phrase you quoted above.

But see, here’s the thing. St. Francis never said that. We don’t know who did. But it wasn’t Francis. It’s not in any of his known writings. It’s not in any of his companions’ writings. It’s not in anyone’s writings about Francis for the first 800 or so years after his death.

[ebb tide]

Whether you're Catholic or not, I recommend you read the book, "Saint Among Savages, the Life of St Isaac Jogues".

It's the true history of a true Catholic missionary and martyr in "enemy" territory. Nothing like the current "ecumenical" wimp in India.

[ebb tide]

I figured so.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I knew this already. In the Bible Belt, the only churches that don't proselytize (aside from the hyper-Calvinistic Primitive Baptists) are the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

[ebb tide]

Thank-you for stating what many Catholics on this forum won’t admit.

[stanne]

That’s my point and it’s the bishops point at least one of tgem

Catholics don’t prostelytize at least not according to church teachings

People think the Catholic Church has a lot of arbitrary rules and that they force them and also judgement onto others

They don’t. Complicated in lieeu of or juxtaposed to other Christian denominations

Very misunderstood

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank-you for stating what many Catholics on this forum won’t admit.

Hey, no problem.

I remember back when I converted to the Catholic Church I had to make all the moves because "only hateful Fundamentalist Protestants would ever try to convert someone." Or something like that. My experience was similar to what I understand joining the Masonic lodge is like (I've never done that, but I've heard all the burden is on the "seeker").

It's really very simple. Fundamentalist Protestants interpret the Bible literally; therefore interpreting the Bible literally is "Protestant" and no self-respecting Catholic or Orthodox may ever do that. Similarly, Fundamentalist Protestants are fanatically and enthusiastically missionary. Therefore missionary zeal is "Protestant" and no Catholic or Orthodox has any business ever doing such a thing.

Then there's the fact that over the centuries the ancient churches have become insular and ethnic. I used to cynically observe that the only reason the Catholic Church is still going is that Irish people reproduce. Catholics and Orthodox spend their time extolling their ancient Irish/Italian/Spanish/French/Austrian/Polish/Russian/Bulgarian/Serbian/Ukrainian/Greek/Armenian/Ethiopian/Vietnamese/Philippine heritage and protecting the various Chosen Peoples from the big, bad, stupid, fundamentalist yokels who don't understand that nobody thinks like that any more.

I am well aware of how annoying proselytizing can be. Where I'm from everyone is proselytized from time to time, but everyone still gets along. I wonder why it never ever enters the head of anyone in the ancient churches that to actually be pursued by such an ancient religion might actually be . . . well . . . flattering? Every little denomination that's just over a hundred years old proselytizes like there's no tomorrow but the ancient and "authentic" churches that claim to go "all the way back" just keep their mouths shut and tell the residents of the various ethnic ghettos how superior they are to all those "hateful rednecks."

"Missionary activity" is as un-Catholic and un-Orthodox as are Biblical literalism and apocalypticism.

[Zionist Conspirator]

That’s my point and it’s the bishops point at least one of tgem

Catholics don’t prostelytize at least not according to church teachings

People think the Catholic Church has a lot of arbitrary rules and that they force them and also judgement onto others

They don’t. Complicated in lieeu of or juxtaposed to other Christian denominations

Very misunderstood

I myself am one of those benighted ignoramuses who "misunderstand" how any church that claims to be the "one true original church that traces itself all the way back to the apostles" can not be proselytary. The fact that Catholicism and Orthodoxy, despite their respectable pedigrees, don't even attempt to make converts shows how much the "unchangeable" religion has changed over the centuries. It's also one reason why I left the Catholic Church and chrstianity altogether.

[dadfly]

well bro. ebb thanks. i think i was trying to focus on the statement in the article (which is puzzling to me given what i know about Catholicism) and certainly not the “official teaching of the Catholic Church” which i’m not prepared in this instance to disagree with in any case. i mean. it’s a quote. i don’t even know if it’s a true quote from the bishop in question.

but in light of the history of heroic and very early Catholic missions and monastic missionaries (leaving aside the political/colonial side of it) in say N. America and China, i don’t see much of a disagreement at least in practice between true Christians of all stripes about the need for vigorous attempts, under the guidence of the Holy Spirit, to seek out and *convert,* or as i understand the word in the Bible—to turn away from Satan, to turn to the living God—the unbelievers in all lands.

i mean that is the gist of the great commission, isn’t it? it’s what God wants us in the Body to work at, be involved in, support, right?

[Zionist Conspirator]

Right after I left the Catholic Church all those years ago, being a student in a large metropolitan area, I took advantage of the opportunity to instead begin attending the sunday liturgies of a local Armenian Apostolic Church. All very exotic. And ethnic. And left wing.

Personally, my opinion since that time has been that if religious truth were to be determined by aesthetics alone, the Armenian Church would be the "one true religion." Unfortunately aside from the problems other churches have with their theology they are also primarily identitarian and get their membership almost exclusively by their members having children.

I for one would have been enchanted had someone actually expressed the desire for me to join their ancient church. But you know, it's a church for Armenians; the Nation is the Church and the Church is the Nation. This is basically what all the ancient churches have become (the Catholic Church just has more ethnic groups).

[Salvation]

God is the one who converts man’s heart.

[stanne]

Anyone can make any statement about the church when they cite the catechism

Like this:

Catechism on mission; or missionary work; prostelytizing; converting; evangelism; or any other thing

[dadfly]

bro. stanne. again, you’re talking past me. i’m not a Catholic. i’m not much interested in catechisms when i can study the Word for myself. my church is tiny and non-denominational. i would call myself a charismatic Christian if you’re interested in labels. i have very dear Catholic friends, fyi and i have nothing against any brother in the Catholic church.

in any case, i take full and sole responsibility for any statement i make here before Jesus and man. if i speak in sin then i ask Jesus to forgive me. my statements are entirely my own. i’m solely responsible for them and i will stand before man and Jesus and answer for all them.

[ebb tide]

Here’s the Catholic Catechism of Pope St Pius X:

Those Outside the Communion of Saints

10 Q. Who are they who do not belong to the Communion of Saints?
A. Those who are damned do not belong to the Communion of Saints in the other life; and in this life those who belong neither to the body nor to the soul of the Church, that is, those who are in mortal sin, and who are outside the true Church.

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?
A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, schismatics, and the excommunicated.

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

13 Q. Who are the Jews?
A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.

14 Q. Who are heretics?
A. Heretics are those of the baptised who obstinately refuse to believe some truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.

15 Q. Who are apostates?
A. Apostates are those who abjure, or by some external act, deny the Catholic faith which they previously professed.

16 Q. Who are schismatics?
A. Schismatics are those Christians who, while not explicitly denying any dogma, yet voluntarily separate themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ, that is, from their lawful pastors.

17 Q. Who are the excommunicated?
A. The excommunicated are those who, because of grievous transgressions, are struck with excommunication by the Pope or their Bishop, and consequently are cut off as unworthy from the body of the Church, which, however, hopes for and desires their conversion.

18 Q. Should excommunication be dreaded?
A. Excommunication should be greatly dreaded, because it is the severest and most terrible punishment the Church can inflict upon her rebellious and obstinate children.

19 Q. Of what goods are the excommunicated deprived?
A. The excommunicated are deprived of public prayers, of the Sacraments, of indulgences and of Christian burial.

20 Q. Can we in any way help the excommunicated?
A. We can in some way help the excommunicated and all others who are outside the true Church, by salutary advice, by prayers and good works, begging God in His mercy to grant them the grace of being converted to the faith and of entering into the Communion of Saints.

[Iscool]

How many times has he read the bible through???

[stanne]

Who?

[piusv]

St. Francis, "a man who was truly Catholic and apostolic," in the same admirable fashion that he had attended to the reformation of the faithful, so likewise set about personally and commanded his disciples to occupy themselves before everything else with the conversion of the heathen to the Faith and Law of Christ.

-Pope Pius XI, Rite Expiatis, 1926

St Francis worked for the conversion of non-Catholics. The pre-VII Church worked for the conversion of non-Catholics because it truly taught and believed in "Outside the Catholic Church there is No Salvation". The post VII Church teaches false ecumenism.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

"Outside the Catholic Church there is No Salvation"

Scripture reveals to us that "[God] desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

So God must provide a means of salvation for people who are ignorant of Christ and His Church, through no fault of their own.

At the same time, their salvation must come about through Christ's atoning death and resurrection, the graces of which are mediated through His Church, which is His Body.

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

(CCC 846).

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means