Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.
According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.
The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”
The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.
In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.
Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.
A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.
There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”
Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.
So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.
-— The Bible is the only thing we need for salvation. -—
Where is that in the Bible?
And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.2 Tim 3:15
Where is that in the Bible?
2 Tim 3:15 and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Just show us INFALLIBLE proof that salvation is possible through Romanism traditions, practices and laws..
Actually only God knows to whom He has granted repentance to salvation ... But God does know, and He has from before creation ....
how silly. The Bible is a series of contracts. In what reality does one not refer primacy to the original contract? And to be more absurd, Man is not even a signor of those contracts, so how is it that Man has the hubris to think that he can amend them?
and "sola fide" (which is not only never taught in the Bible, but the Bible flatly says that it's WRONG... James 2:24)?
LOLWhut? Then y'all better get back to keeping Torah - Every bit of it.
Sorry, guess you do not understand y’all. I did not single you out. So get over yourself. I have read comments by many Catholics on this site and some are very hateful and wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to either Mary or saints. Maccabees is not in the Bible for a reason, so try again.
I dont want to sound all Calvinist but if that were the case, what difference does any of this make. If it is all predestined, then why even try.
2Peter 3:16 was written directly to you.
The writings of Paul do not lead me astray, because I accept all of them as complete letters, not an accumulation of twistable verses to be used as escape chutes.
There is no interpretation permitted.
Things can be “hard to understand” to those such as yourself who, as your posts constantly demonstrate, have intentions to create support for the doctrines of men, rather than the word.
I see no evidence that you’ve ever been introduced to the Holy Spirit; how might you “go with” him?
One who prays to dead humans for favors cannot possibly know the Holy Spirit.
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Thanks. Good job.
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Maccabees does not tell us to pray to any human, dead or alive.
The Maccabees books are some of the most revealing history ever written, but they are in no way doctrinal.
It is the books of the Maccabees that demonstrate that no Jewish believer ever spoke Greek or Aramaic as their primary language. That is an important thing to know when trying to maintain the continuity of the scriptures, moving into NT writings.
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“One who prays to dead humans for favors cannot possibly know the Holy Spirit.” Sometimes you go too far. Paul would not have troubled himself to write so many letters to the various groups he evangelized if believers could not fall into error. Besides, if this falling into error were not possible, you and I would have no reason to get on these threads and cajole believers to ‘search the scriptures’.
Are you telling me that you see allowance in the word for prayers to dead humans?
Paul exposed the errors he saw rather well, and it is only his tendency toward very long, complicated sentences of self revelation that I think can confuse some.
Of course there is the problem of those that have not studied the Tanakh, trying to understand his words that are taken therefrom. There is no path to understanding in such a case.
Perhaps I am mistaken and you actually believe a person can be saved, lose that salvation then get it again somehow?
Or perhaps you don’t believe that it is God Who is in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure, even when you stumble?
what caused you to be baptized?
That's your answer.
Nope.
You're comparing the wrong things.
You can give all the lip service you want, but simply declaring it doesn't mean you did it.
If you truly repented of your sin, you would not go out and murder someone, especially thinking he can do it and bank on God's forgiveness to let him into heaven anyway. That is not a regenerate heart.
A true believer, one who has truly repented and been regenerated, IS saved and IS secure.
Security of the believer
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
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>> “Perhaps I am mistaken and you actually believe a person can be saved, lose that salvation then get it again somehow?” <<
Every one of the apostles told us that no one is saved until the Day of Trumpets.
If you mean fall off the path to that salvation, Paul and Peter made it plain that it happens all the time. Hebrews 6 and 2Peter 2 describe exactly that in depressing detail.
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“Every one of the apostles told us that no one is saved until the Day of Trumpets.” Was Paul an Apostle?
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Those that are ruled by their own will do more than stumble.
There are many that think they are “saved” simply because they said the very unbiblical “sinners prayer” and go to a church.
They have not “studied to show themselves approved,” and have been told that salvation is an unconditionally guaranteed shot just for saying a few words that were given to them to recite.
It can be difficult to bring such a person to the Lord.
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